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I am positive that not 'everyone' is using Jira in the wrong way, just that many-many companies use it and many companies have broken culture or processes (or t

I am positive that not 'everyone' is using Jira in the wrong way, just that many-many companies use it and many companies have broken culture or processes (or they have the right processes for the company, but that's not enjoyable for the employeees, that can also be the case). Again, Java or Javascript are also a good example: I am relatively sure that crappy Java code is much more common than crappy Clojure or Haskell code. Does it mean Haskell is 'better' than Java > It's a micromanagement-first system: everything you want to do has to be explicitly enabled by a manager, and if you want to do something a manager didn't think of, too bad. We don't have anything even resembling to this in our company, and we use Jira. Again: Jira is a relatively good tool for storing information that's related to a certain piece of work. If you don't think that the context for any work should be documented, then don't do it, but we have learned it the hard way that code changes without business and technical context are not great, because in 5 years you might have a completely different set of people working on the codebase and they sometimes need to ask why this code was ever created. This is the context we store in Jira, and we could store it on a wiki, in Asana, etc. but Jira works just as well and again: it has brilliant integrations to everything. Yeah, performance is not great but it's getting better nowadays. There are faster tools out there, but we considered integrations to be more important (YMMV ofc.).

lmm 6y ago
> I am positive that not 'everyone' is using Jira in the wrong way, just that many-many companies use it and many companies have broken culture or processes (or they have the right processes for the company, but that's not enjoyable for the employeees, that can also be the case). I've worked in 6 or 7 companies that used Jira across a variety of different industries, and Jira was terrible in all of them; one of them was a previously excellent company that made a switch to using Jira, and that distinctly coincided with the company becoming worse to work with in many ways. > Again, Java or Javascript are also a good example: I am relatively sure that crappy Java code is much more common than crappy Clojure or Haskell code. Does it mean Haskell is 'better' than Java All else being equal, yes. You can make an argument that Haskell etc. attract better programmers because they're hard to learn, but it's hard to make a corresponding argument about Jira; how much time and effort does it take to not use something? > We don't have anything even resembling to this in our company, and we use Jira. Again: Jira is a relatively good tool for storing information that's related to a certain piece of work. Well, a) I'm pretty sure that's not how most companies use it, and b) I don't think it's very well suited to that either. Its IDs are the worst of both worlds (not a simple number but not actually informative either) and its search function is awful, so it's vastly inferior to using a wiki (a real one, not Confluence). > Yeah, performance is not great but it's getting better nowadays. There are faster tools out there, but we considered integrations to be more important (YMMV ofc.). Most places I've worked disabled most integrations due to performance problems, so I may be missing some of your experiences, but I don't understand what and how you're integrating if you're only using it as a store of information.
- tharkun__ 6y ago
  And if you ask me it's not Jira. It's the companies. I've been in many large companies and have seen other tools used. Jira is a huge improvement especially with its workflow. Have you have had the sort of reporting requirements and workflows implemented in a tool where what's a simple workflow action in Jira with a transition screen that asks you to fill all the required fields implemented as just a screen full of fields that you are supposed to individually update correctly? And they're all over the screen seemingly unrelated? Now the good part is that you don't actually have to use all those customizations if your company doesn't 'need' that much process. Whether you have a Todo-In progress-Done workflow or Backlog-Ready for Dev-In Progress-Code review-Ready for QA-In QA-In Regression-Ready to merge-Merged to integration branch-In Integration Testing-Ready for master-Merged to master-Released to Prod workflow is up to you!
  - lmm 6y ago
    > Have you have had the sort of reporting requirements and workflows implemented in a tool where what's a simple workflow action in Jira with a transition screen that asks you to fill all the required fields implemented as just a screen full of fields that you are supposed to individually update correctly? And they're all over the screen seemingly unrelated? Yes, the tool was called "Jira". That's actually better than my experience of the "simple workflow action" approach, where the fields you need to change aren't available, because you clicked the wrong action at the wrong time or did the wrong thing three actions back. And since there's no way to undo an action or return to the previous screen, you're stuffed. If you're lucky you might be able to find a manager who's able to do some other transition or define a new transition to fix your problem. More likely you have to throw that task away and recreate it from scratch. Oh, and there's no way to close the copy that's in the wrong state, so it's in your to-do list forever now. > Now the good part is that you don't actually have to use all those customizations if your company doesn't 'need' that much process. Whether you have a Todo-In progress-Done workflow or Backlog-Ready for Dev-In Progress-Code review-Ready for QA-In QA-In Regression-Ready to merge-Merged to integration branch-In Integration Testing-Ready for master-Merged to master-Released to Prod workflow is up to you! You need customization to have any workflow available at all - that was what I said about hoping a manager thought of what you were trying to do first. You want to put your In progress thing back to Todo? To bad, you can't. Accidentally marked something as Ready for QA when it isn't? Tough, no undo. Etc.

lmm 6y ago

> I am positive that not 'everyone' is using Jira in the wrong way, just that many-many companies use it and many companies have broken culture or processes (or they have the right processes for the company, but that's not enjoyable for the employeees, that can also be the case). I've worked in 6 or 7 companies that used Jira across a variety of different industries, and Jira was terrible in all of them; one of them was a previously excellent company that made a switch to using Jira, and that distinctly coincided with the company becoming worse to work with in many ways. > Again, Java or Javascript are also a good example: I am relatively sure that crappy Java code is much more common than crappy Clojure or Haskell code. Does it mean Haskell is 'better' than Java All else being equal, yes. You can make an argument that Haskell etc. attract better programmers because they're hard to learn, but it's hard to make a corresponding argument about Jira; how much time and effort does it take to not use something? > We don't have anything even resembling to this in our company, and we use Jira. Again: Jira is a relatively good tool for storing information that's related to a certain piece of work. Well, a) I'm pretty sure that's not how most companies use it, and b) I don't think it's very well suited to that either. Its IDs are the worst of both worlds (not a simple number but not actually informative either) and its search function is awful, so it's vastly inferior to using a wiki (a real one, not Confluence). > Yeah, performance is not great but it's getting better nowadays. There are faster tools out there, but we considered integrations to be more important (YMMV ofc.). Most places I've worked disabled most integrations due to performance problems, so I may be missing some of your experiences, but I don't understand what and how you're integrating if you're only using it as a store of information.

tharkun__ 6y ago
And if you ask me it's not Jira. It's the companies. I've been in many large companies and have seen other tools used. Jira is a huge improvement especially with its workflow. Have you have had the sort of reporting requirements and workflows implemented in a tool where what's a simple workflow action in Jira with a transition screen that asks you to fill all the required fields implemented as just a screen full of fields that you are supposed to individually update correctly? And they're all over the screen seemingly unrelated? Now the good part is that you don't actually have to use all those customizations if your company doesn't 'need' that much process. Whether you have a Todo-In progress-Done workflow or Backlog-Ready for Dev-In Progress-Code review-Ready for QA-In QA-In Regression-Ready to merge-Merged to integration branch-In Integration Testing-Ready for master-Merged to master-Released to Prod workflow is up to you!
- lmm 6y ago
  > Have you have had the sort of reporting requirements and workflows implemented in a tool where what's a simple workflow action in Jira with a transition screen that asks you to fill all the required fields implemented as just a screen full of fields that you are supposed to individually update correctly? And they're all over the screen seemingly unrelated? Yes, the tool was called "Jira". That's actually better than my experience of the "simple workflow action" approach, where the fields you need to change aren't available, because you clicked the wrong action at the wrong time or did the wrong thing three actions back. And since there's no way to undo an action or return to the previous screen, you're stuffed. If you're lucky you might be able to find a manager who's able to do some other transition or define a new transition to fix your problem. More likely you have to throw that task away and recreate it from scratch. Oh, and there's no way to close the copy that's in the wrong state, so it's in your to-do list forever now. > Now the good part is that you don't actually have to use all those customizations if your company doesn't 'need' that much process. Whether you have a Todo-In progress-Done workflow or Backlog-Ready for Dev-In Progress-Code review-Ready for QA-In QA-In Regression-Ready to merge-Merged to integration branch-In Integration Testing-Ready for master-Merged to master-Released to Prod workflow is up to you! You need customization to have any workflow available at all - that was what I said about hoping a manager thought of what you were trying to do first. You want to put your In progress thing back to Todo? To bad, you can't. Accidentally marked something as Ready for QA when it isn't? Tough, no undo. Etc.