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I liked the account but to be honest this line about Herr Doktor and Moses really flew over my head. It's just a bunch of cultural allusions but I don't see how

I liked the account but to be honest this line about Herr Doktor and Moses really flew over my head. It's just a bunch of cultural allusions but I don't see how they connect. - Herr Doktor is a traditional German title, roughly equivalent to the more-known "Doctor of Medicine (MD)" or "Juris Doctor (JD)". - Is the allusion to Moses due to this story being post-war/unification and Moses is a Jewish figure? (There might be technicalities between "Jew", "Israelite", and "Abrahamic" but I'm even more ignorant here than I am of German customs.) - Is "space on the stone tablets", "11th Commandment" an allusion to the (in)famous German noun-phrases? Like "Wohnungsgeberbestatigung" which is actually three words (trans: "apartment-provider's confirmation"/"landlord's confirmation"). So...explainer from anyone who got this line?

LordN00b 6y ago
It's a humurous statement about arrogance, in a nutshell : The Doctor is always correct, no matter the context. The Moses 11th Commandment, is a comment on the biblical story of Moses. He was given 10 laws from God, and etched them onto a stone tablet. The Doctors of Germany are annoyed becuase the there should have beeen an 11th COmmandandment and it should have been, 'The Doctor is always correct'. The Doctors of Germany have forgiven God for this oversight.
BillyTheKing 6y ago
I feel like you might be overthinking this a little ;) it's simply that commonly and (mostly) ironically Mose's commands are seen as the corner-stone of Christian societies. And since the fact that ein Herr Doctor is always right is such a fundamental law in German society (again, this is obviously a hyperbole and meant ironically) one would've expected it to be included in Mose's list of commands. But since it isn't, ehe only rational reason for it to have been omitted must've been the fact that he didn't have much space left for that 11th command. That's all.
- DoreenMichele 6y ago
  Oh. That makes sense. Herr Doktor just means Mister Doctor. "The Doctor is always right is the 11th commandment. Moses ran out of space to add that to the stone tablets (where he wrote the first ten)." I think it is worded awkwardly. I also had trouble parsing that.
  - chiph 6y ago
    German is also famous for stringing several words together, so you will also see "Herr Doktoringenieur" for someone who has a PhD in engineering. And is even more right than a regular Herr Doctor because he is also an Engineer.
    - yokaze 6y ago
      > Doktoringenieur Never seen it in practical German though. > And is even more right than a regular Herr Doctor because he is also an Engineer. On the contrary. The traditional universities didn't want to accept technical universities as full ones.A full university is supposed to have theology, jurisprudence, philosophy and medicine. Technical universities were more practical oriented and to some degree looked down upon. So they couldn't give "proper" doctor titles. Just "dr.-ing." (note the hyphen), compared to "Dr. Med.", "Dr. Phil."... The Dutch apparently do have a double title for doctors, which are also engineers.
      - coldtea 6y ago
        >Never seen it in practical German though. Well, google does give 180K matches
        yokaze 6y ago
        "Mountebank" gives me 763k matches, "Chirurgeon" 185k. Never come across them before I looked for uncommon terms for doctors in the English language. I am not saying it is not a word or incorrect, but that I haven't seen it in practical use. Have you observed that?
      - Tijdreiziger 6y ago
        > The Dutch apparently do have a double title for doctors, which are also engineers. I suppose this is technically true, but AFAIK, you'd just use 'dr.', which would imply that you're also 'drs.' or 'ir.' (as you can't be one without also being the other). Of course, these days, communication is more casual and you'd be just as likely not to use your title. When I was in University, all of my Dutch professors signed their emails with just their name (no titles), but one of my professors from Germany would stubbornly sign all his emails as 'dr. ir. nat. habil.' :D
progfix 6y ago
The old testament says that Moses received the 10 commandements from god and he wrote them down on stone tablets. The author says that people with a doctor degree are always right. Moses would have written that down as well but he had no space on his stone tablets left.
simson 6y ago
Doktor is also the equivalent of a PhD. He probably had a PhD in CompSciene.
- choeger 6y ago
  Or in Math or some engineering field. CS wasn't a thing in German universities until the 70s, I think. So for someone in a senior position in 1990 it seems quite likely to be around 50, too old to have finished a PhD program around 1980.
  - philjohn 6y ago
    Yes - there are quite a few engineering doctors in Germany - the ex-CEO of Daimler is one, Dr Dieter Zetsche. My dad worked a lot in Germany for Dow Corning in the 80's and 90's and it's a very distinct engineering culture from many other places.
- mhd 6y ago
  More likely to be anything else but CS (and frankly, medicine). A doctorate in almost anything plus a smart suit gets you into management track quickly. There's a reason why Germany had quite a number of fake doctorate scandals in politics. And probably will continue to do so for a while... Most of which have been JDs, by the way, which are both rarer and more important sounding in Germany. And if you think this is getting a bit ridiculous, let me introduce you to our neighbor Austria. Take it away, Herr Geheimrat…
pjmlp 6y ago
To add to the other explanations, there are Herr Doktors that think so high of themselves that they put the title everywhere, business cards, emails addresses, name on the letter box, and everywhere else they are supposed to write the name, you even get to write it on personal data online forms. Coming from a country (Portugal) where having an Engineering degree still has a similar connotation and there are still some that make the point to be called Eng. SoAndSo, specially on smaller towns and villages, it was kind of ironic to find a society where it is taken to the next level.
- brmgb 6y ago
  I find the situation even funnier when you consider that France, Germany main partner in the European Union and direct neighbor, views having a PhD outside of research as a waste of time and something which will be held against you. The cultural differences between European countries are fascinating.
  - pjmlp 6y ago
    Indeed, however I feel when you immerse into local culture, eventually we find out there is a thin common culture across the continent, regarding what everyone was watching while growing up or certain points of view versus other continents.
    - hencq 6y ago
      As a European living in the US, I think Europeans have much more in common than they think. The differences between countries seem big until you're looking at them from a distance. I'd even argue that the UK has more in common with 'the continent' than with the US.
      - pezezin 6y ago
        As an European living in Japan, I totally agree with you. And obviously Western countries (including AU and NZ) have much more in common with each other than with Asian/African/whatever countries.
wiredfool 6y ago
Honorifics are cultural. In undergraduate -- It was always Professor LastName. In grad school, other cost, it was Doctor Lastname. We had a discussion there, and learned that in Germany, it was Herr Doctor Professor Lastname.
- Tomte 6y ago
  Little fix in the order: Herr Professor Doktor. But only in formal writing. When talking to them, it's Herr Professor. Austria loves their honorifics, though. Every school teacher is a Professor, and the Professor's wife is Mrs. Professor.
  - t0astbread 6y ago
    *every school teacher after secondary school. Before that they're still mostly "Mr./Mrs. Teacher".
  - jsdwarf 6y ago
    Small correction: only grammar school teachers are called Professors in Austria, junior high school teachers just "Herr/Frau LehrerIn". In earlier days, you needed a master degree to teach in grammar school and just a bachelor degree for junior high.
  - jsdwarf 6y ago
    Strictly speaking, only Austrian grammar school teachers appointed as civil servants were allowed to carry the title Professor. That appointment (Pragmatisierung) is somewhat comparable to academic tenure: you had a job guarantee and the right to stay at "your" school, whereas non-tenured teachers had to switch schools in case of insufficient work hours. But a tenured teacher had a lower salary compared to a non-tenured one and so emperor Franz Josef had the idea with the additional Professor title. A smart move, because he satisfied the academic "vanity" of the teachers which kept salary costs lower. Since the difference between tenured and non-tenured teachers is beyond the understanding of 10-18 year old pupils, they called every teacher "Professor".
  - burntoutfire 6y ago
bitwize 6y ago
The idea is that "a Herr Doktor is always right" is a holy commandment in Germany, just as important as the other ten and it should be noted along with the other ten. He's saying the Germans have forgiven Moses by now for leaving it out, but they still consider it as much a holy commandment as the others.
zxcvbn4038 6y ago
You aren’t a Mel Brooks fan? “The lord has given me these fifteen *trip* these ten commandments..”
coldtea 6y ago
(a) Herr Doktor = the professor (the academic, the PhD guy, the big fish in a goverment organization, the one with the most credentials) (b) "Herr Doktor is always right" - a central tenet of German society (or basically, organization politics) according to the author. (c) Such a central tenet that it should have been on Moses tablets as the 11th commandment, but Moses run out of space. (d) Benevolent as they are, however, the Doktors, forgave Moses for that oversight.
mobutu 6y ago
Are you autistic?

LordN00b 6y ago

It's a humurous statement about arrogance, in a nutshell : The Doctor is always correct, no matter the context. The Moses 11th Commandment, is a comment on the biblical story of Moses. He was given 10 laws from God, and etched them onto a stone tablet. The Doctors of Germany are annoyed becuase the there should have beeen an 11th COmmandandment and it should have been, 'The Doctor is always correct'. The Doctors of Germany have forgiven God for this oversight.

BillyTheKing 6y ago

I feel like you might be overthinking this a little ;) it's simply that commonly and (mostly) ironically Mose's commands are seen as the corner-stone of Christian societies. And since the fact that ein Herr Doctor is always right is such a fundamental law in German society (again, this is obviously a hyperbole and meant ironically) one would've expected it to be included in Mose's list of commands. But since it isn't, ehe only rational reason for it to have been omitted must've been the fact that he didn't have much space left for that 11th command. That's all.

DoreenMichele 6y ago
Oh. That makes sense. Herr Doktor just means Mister Doctor. "The Doctor is always right is the 11th commandment. Moses ran out of space to add that to the stone tablets (where he wrote the first ten)." I think it is worded awkwardly. I also had trouble parsing that.
- chiph 6y ago
  German is also famous for stringing several words together, so you will also see "Herr Doktoringenieur" for someone who has a PhD in engineering. And is even more right than a regular Herr Doctor because he is also an Engineer.
  - yokaze 6y ago
    > Doktoringenieur Never seen it in practical German though. > And is even more right than a regular Herr Doctor because he is also an Engineer. On the contrary. The traditional universities didn't want to accept technical universities as full ones.A full university is supposed to have theology, jurisprudence, philosophy and medicine. Technical universities were more practical oriented and to some degree looked down upon. So they couldn't give "proper" doctor titles. Just "dr.-ing." (note the hyphen), compared to "Dr. Med.", "Dr. Phil."... The Dutch apparently do have a double title for doctors, which are also engineers.
    - coldtea 6y ago
      >Never seen it in practical German though. Well, google does give 180K matches
      - yokaze 6y ago
        "Mountebank" gives me 763k matches, "Chirurgeon" 185k. Never come across them before I looked for uncommon terms for doctors in the English language. I am not saying it is not a word or incorrect, but that I haven't seen it in practical use. Have you observed that?
    - Tijdreiziger 6y ago
      > The Dutch apparently do have a double title for doctors, which are also engineers. I suppose this is technically true, but AFAIK, you'd just use 'dr.', which would imply that you're also 'drs.' or 'ir.' (as you can't be one without also being the other). Of course, these days, communication is more casual and you'd be just as likely not to use your title. When I was in University, all of my Dutch professors signed their emails with just their name (no titles), but one of my professors from Germany would stubbornly sign all his emails as 'dr. ir. nat. habil.' :D

progfix 6y ago

The old testament says that Moses received the 10 commandements from god and he wrote them down on stone tablets. The author says that people with a doctor degree are always right. Moses would have written that down as well but he had no space on his stone tablets left.

simson 6y ago

Doktor is also the equivalent of a PhD. He probably had a PhD in CompSciene.

choeger 6y ago
Or in Math or some engineering field. CS wasn't a thing in German universities until the 70s, I think. So for someone in a senior position in 1990 it seems quite likely to be around 50, too old to have finished a PhD program around 1980.
- philjohn 6y ago
  Yes - there are quite a few engineering doctors in Germany - the ex-CEO of Daimler is one, Dr Dieter Zetsche. My dad worked a lot in Germany for Dow Corning in the 80's and 90's and it's a very distinct engineering culture from many other places.
mhd 6y ago
More likely to be anything else but CS (and frankly, medicine). A doctorate in almost anything plus a smart suit gets you into management track quickly. There's a reason why Germany had quite a number of fake doctorate scandals in politics. And probably will continue to do so for a while... Most of which have been JDs, by the way, which are both rarer and more important sounding in Germany. And if you think this is getting a bit ridiculous, let me introduce you to our neighbor Austria. Take it away, Herr Geheimrat…

pjmlp 6y ago

To add to the other explanations, there are Herr Doktors that think so high of themselves that they put the title everywhere, business cards, emails addresses, name on the letter box, and everywhere else they are supposed to write the name, you even get to write it on personal data online forms. Coming from a country (Portugal) where having an Engineering degree still has a similar connotation and there are still some that make the point to be called Eng. SoAndSo, specially on smaller towns and villages, it was kind of ironic to find a society where it is taken to the next level.

brmgb 6y ago
I find the situation even funnier when you consider that France, Germany main partner in the European Union and direct neighbor, views having a PhD outside of research as a waste of time and something which will be held against you. The cultural differences between European countries are fascinating.
- pjmlp 6y ago
  Indeed, however I feel when you immerse into local culture, eventually we find out there is a thin common culture across the continent, regarding what everyone was watching while growing up or certain points of view versus other continents.
  - hencq 6y ago
    As a European living in the US, I think Europeans have much more in common than they think. The differences between countries seem big until you're looking at them from a distance. I'd even argue that the UK has more in common with 'the continent' than with the US.
    - pezezin 6y ago
      As an European living in Japan, I totally agree with you. And obviously Western countries (including AU and NZ) have much more in common with each other than with Asian/African/whatever countries.

wiredfool 6y ago

Honorifics are cultural. In undergraduate -- It was always Professor LastName. In grad school, other cost, it was Doctor Lastname. We had a discussion there, and learned that in Germany, it was Herr Doctor Professor Lastname.

Tomte 6y ago
Little fix in the order: Herr Professor Doktor. But only in formal writing. When talking to them, it's Herr Professor. Austria loves their honorifics, though. Every school teacher is a Professor, and the Professor's wife is Mrs. Professor.
- t0astbread 6y ago
  *every school teacher after secondary school. Before that they're still mostly "Mr./Mrs. Teacher".
- jsdwarf 6y ago
  Small correction: only grammar school teachers are called Professors in Austria, junior high school teachers just "Herr/Frau LehrerIn". In earlier days, you needed a master degree to teach in grammar school and just a bachelor degree for junior high.
- jsdwarf 6y ago
  Strictly speaking, only Austrian grammar school teachers appointed as civil servants were allowed to carry the title Professor. That appointment (Pragmatisierung) is somewhat comparable to academic tenure: you had a job guarantee and the right to stay at "your" school, whereas non-tenured teachers had to switch schools in case of insufficient work hours. But a tenured teacher had a lower salary compared to a non-tenured one and so emperor Franz Josef had the idea with the additional Professor title. A smart move, because he satisfied the academic "vanity" of the teachers which kept salary costs lower. Since the difference between tenured and non-tenured teachers is beyond the understanding of 10-18 year old pupils, they called every teacher "Professor".
- burntoutfire 6y ago

bitwize 6y ago

The idea is that "a Herr Doktor is always right" is a holy commandment in Germany, just as important as the other ten and it should be noted along with the other ten. He's saying the Germans have forgiven Moses by now for leaving it out, but they still consider it as much a holy commandment as the others.

zxcvbn4038 6y ago

You aren’t a Mel Brooks fan? “The lord has given me these fifteen *trip* these ten commandments..”

coldtea 6y ago

(a) Herr Doktor = the professor (the academic, the PhD guy, the big fish in a goverment organization, the one with the most credentials) (b) "Herr Doktor is always right" - a central tenet of German society (or basically, organization politics) according to the author. (c) Such a central tenet that it should have been on Moses tablets as the 11th commandment, but Moses run out of space. (d) Benevolent as they are, however, the Doktors, forgave Moses for that oversight.

mobutu 6y ago

Are you autistic?