5 ms·

Because programming on e paper would be horrible. You can’t scroll text properly. You would be limited to page up/down. And then it takes a second or few to do

Because programming on e paper would be horrible. You can’t scroll text properly. You would be limited to page up/down. And then it takes a second or few to do that. And then the e paper panel costs a bunch so what would be a $1000 laptop becomes $4000 and is strictly worse for the vast majority of users.

fouc 6y ago
There are e-ink displays with higher refresh rates where scrolling is possible, like Dasung's new e-ink monitor https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9qrURPAtnY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9qrURPAtnY
- marvindanig 6y ago
  e-ink screens are objectively worse for our eyes than an IPS panel screen. I mean, this is besides the fact that e-paper screens are also more expensive and less capable than the standard iridescent screen that we spend 24 hours on daily.
  - fouc 6y ago
    > e-ink screens are objectively worse for our eyes than an IPS panel screen. That's not actually true. I have glasses explicitly to prevent eye-strain for when I'm working on the computer, even when it is an IPS/retina display with 2X pixel scaling. However I don't need glasses at all when reading books on a kindle or kobo.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - Karsteski 6y ago
      Which glasses are these? I'm finding that my eyes are pretty much permanently strained while I'm staring at my computer screen...
      - RMPR 6y ago
        Not OP, but I ordered one of these[0] recently. Really a game changer. P.S I'm not affiliated in any way 0: gmg-performance.com
        BossingAround 6y ago
        Weren't blue-light filtering glasses proved to be with no known benefits? E.g. [1]. Personally, I'm very sensitive to light and get frequent debilitating headaches. Blue light filter changes very little for me. Making the whole screen just red with something like flux (together with my glasses that also block blue light) might help around 5-10%, but the migraine still comes full force (maybe 10-15m later). [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkJY9bgLyBE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkJY9bgLyBE
        ghusbands 6y ago
        I think your experience with migraines can hardly inform a typical person's experience with blue-light filters and a random hidden camera exposé is not really going to "prove" anything. Also, flux is aimed at sleep regulation, where blue-light filtering is aimed at claimed damage reduction and increased acuity. However, there do seem to be no studies proving efficacy, indeed.
        BossingAround 6y ago
        > I think your experience with migraines can hardly inform a typical person's experience with blue-light filters I would guess it's the opposite--because I'm extremely sensitive to light in general, I'd think if blue-light filters were effective, they'd be even more effective on me, which they aren't. > Also, flux is aimed at sleep regulation People seem to equate "less blue light" with "better" and yet when I make my screen dark orange/red, it does nothing. Also note that I said something like Flux. Last but not least, my glasses also have blue-light filter in them. So I'm reducing blue light with both HW and SW and it has very minuscule effect on me, personally. Of course, it's anecdotal experience and nothing more. But I get an eye twitch when I see stuff like "blue filter is a game changer". Sounds like placebo to me.
  - pmontra 6y ago
    Is an IPS screen displaying static content better than a properly illuminated sheet of paper? I hardly believe that. Of course I remember how difficult was to properly illuminate my notebooks when I was a kid. I guess I'd end up with two lamps on my sides and they are difficult to move as easily as a laptop. For dynamic content, eg ls -la, scrolling through a file, watching to a video, doing a video call, it's no contest.
    - marvindanig 6y ago
      I know, counter-intuitive it was for me too! Professor Michael Young, Michael Rosbash and Jeffrey C. Hall won a Nobel Prize for research in this area in 2017. [1] https://www.nobelprize.org/prizes/medicine/2017/press-release/ https://www.nobelprize.org/prizes/medicine/2017/press-releas... [2] https://bubblin.io/blog/daylight-energy-fatigue https://bubblin.io/blog/daylight-energy-fatigue
      - pmontra 6y ago
        Conclusion of [2] "If you are a night owl, you might be better off with a tablet, but if you are a daytime reader who prefers reading outside in the Sun, then a reflective e-reader or a physical book is a better option. Other than that, there is no difference between the two screens."
- linspace 6y ago
  That's amazing. It's so retro... One is tempted to build with it some kind of steam punk computer.
stewbrew 6y ago
cough Back then in the old days you used page down/up because the computer was too slow to make scrolling line by line useful. You can live without scrolling.
- johnchristopher 6y ago
  And a function should not take up more space than a screen anyway!
drdebug 6y ago
I purchased a Boox Max2 and got the version with HDMI to code. What I had not realized is that I would miss source code highlighting with color coding so much. Everything else can be more or less worked around, scrolling did not bother me.
Qwertious 6y ago
>And then the e paper panel costs a bunch so what would be a $1000 laptop becomes $4000 and is strictly worse for the vast majority of users. IMO, this is fundamentally a niche object. But that nicheness means that if it did exist, it would have several options without worrying about pissing off the mainstream. #1 on that list is that you don't need to seamlessly emulate an LCD screen with an e-ink screen - instead of having a single multiplexed screen, have 2-3 80-char-wide separate e-ink screens and have text on each of them. This has two advantages: one, it's cheaper because e-ink screen costs scale geometrically with size, not linearly. And two, AIUI partial-refresh doesn't work well when you're literally refreshing a third or half of your screen, but two completely independent screens can obviously refresh independently of each other. I'm assuming partial refreshes are faster due to taking a smaller absolute number of pixels, and not due to being a smaller proportion of the screen, so e.g. a quarter of a 4" screen will refresh the same speed as a full 2" screen refresh but faster than a full 4" screen refresh. Ideally, you'd want to split the e-ink screen into as many smaller screens as possible anywhere it makes sense (and design the UI in hardware), simply to reduce costs. Sadly, large cheap single screens have made the concept of software controlled UIs so obvious that people don't even consider the alternative.
namibj 6y ago
My Eink tablet does ~15 fps in monochrome operation. It can very much scroll, though you are right, one would typically use page up/down functionality. But you'd not really have to wait.

fouc 6y ago

There are e-ink displays with higher refresh rates where scrolling is possible, like Dasung's new e-ink monitor https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9qrURPAtnY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9qrURPAtnY

marvindanig 6y ago
e-ink screens are objectively worse for our eyes than an IPS panel screen. I mean, this is besides the fact that e-paper screens are also more expensive and less capable than the standard iridescent screen that we spend 24 hours on daily.
- fouc 6y ago
  > e-ink screens are objectively worse for our eyes than an IPS panel screen. That's not actually true. I have glasses explicitly to prevent eye-strain for when I'm working on the computer, even when it is an IPS/retina display with 2X pixel scaling. However I don't need glasses at all when reading books on a kindle or kobo.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - Karsteski 6y ago
    Which glasses are these? I'm finding that my eyes are pretty much permanently strained while I'm staring at my computer screen...
    - RMPR 6y ago
      Not OP, but I ordered one of these[0] recently. Really a game changer. P.S I'm not affiliated in any way 0: gmg-performance.com
      - BossingAround 6y ago
        Weren't blue-light filtering glasses proved to be with no known benefits? E.g. [1]. Personally, I'm very sensitive to light and get frequent debilitating headaches. Blue light filter changes very little for me. Making the whole screen just red with something like flux (together with my glasses that also block blue light) might help around 5-10%, but the migraine still comes full force (maybe 10-15m later). [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkJY9bgLyBE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkJY9bgLyBE
        ghusbands 6y ago
        I think your experience with migraines can hardly inform a typical person's experience with blue-light filters and a random hidden camera exposé is not really going to "prove" anything. Also, flux is aimed at sleep regulation, where blue-light filtering is aimed at claimed damage reduction and increased acuity. However, there do seem to be no studies proving efficacy, indeed.
        BossingAround 6y ago
        > I think your experience with migraines can hardly inform a typical person's experience with blue-light filters I would guess it's the opposite--because I'm extremely sensitive to light in general, I'd think if blue-light filters were effective, they'd be even more effective on me, which they aren't. > Also, flux is aimed at sleep regulation People seem to equate "less blue light" with "better" and yet when I make my screen dark orange/red, it does nothing. Also note that I said something like Flux. Last but not least, my glasses also have blue-light filter in them. So I'm reducing blue light with both HW and SW and it has very minuscule effect on me, personally. Of course, it's anecdotal experience and nothing more. But I get an eye twitch when I see stuff like "blue filter is a game changer". Sounds like placebo to me.
- pmontra 6y ago
  Is an IPS screen displaying static content better than a properly illuminated sheet of paper? I hardly believe that. Of course I remember how difficult was to properly illuminate my notebooks when I was a kid. I guess I'd end up with two lamps on my sides and they are difficult to move as easily as a laptop. For dynamic content, eg ls -la, scrolling through a file, watching to a video, doing a video call, it's no contest.
  - marvindanig 6y ago
    I know, counter-intuitive it was for me too! Professor Michael Young, Michael Rosbash and Jeffrey C. Hall won a Nobel Prize for research in this area in 2017. [1] https://www.nobelprize.org/prizes/medicine/2017/press-release/ https://www.nobelprize.org/prizes/medicine/2017/press-releas... [2] https://bubblin.io/blog/daylight-energy-fatigue https://bubblin.io/blog/daylight-energy-fatigue
    - pmontra 6y ago
      Conclusion of [2] "If you are a night owl, you might be better off with a tablet, but if you are a daytime reader who prefers reading outside in the Sun, then a reflective e-reader or a physical book is a better option. Other than that, there is no difference between the two screens."
linspace 6y ago
That's amazing. It's so retro... One is tempted to build with it some kind of steam punk computer.

stewbrew 6y ago

cough Back then in the old days you used page down/up because the computer was too slow to make scrolling line by line useful. You can live without scrolling.

johnchristopher 6y ago
And a function should not take up more space than a screen anyway!

drdebug 6y ago

I purchased a Boox Max2 and got the version with HDMI to code. What I had not realized is that I would miss source code highlighting with color coding so much. Everything else can be more or less worked around, scrolling did not bother me.

Qwertious 6y ago

>And then the e paper panel costs a bunch so what would be a $1000 laptop becomes $4000 and is strictly worse for the vast majority of users. IMO, this is fundamentally a niche object. But that nicheness means that if it did exist, it would have several options without worrying about pissing off the mainstream. #1 on that list is that you don't need to seamlessly emulate an LCD screen with an e-ink screen - instead of having a single multiplexed screen, have 2-3 80-char-wide separate e-ink screens and have text on each of them. This has two advantages: one, it's cheaper because e-ink screen costs scale geometrically with size, not linearly. And two, AIUI partial-refresh doesn't work well when you're literally refreshing a third or half of your screen, but two completely independent screens can obviously refresh independently of each other. I'm assuming partial refreshes are faster due to taking a smaller absolute number of pixels, and not due to being a smaller proportion of the screen, so e.g. a quarter of a 4" screen will refresh the same speed as a full 2" screen refresh but faster than a full 4" screen refresh. Ideally, you'd want to split the e-ink screen into as many smaller screens as possible anywhere it makes sense (and design the UI in hardware), simply to reduce costs. Sadly, large cheap single screens have made the concept of software controlled UIs so obvious that people don't even consider the alternative.

namibj 6y ago

My Eink tablet does ~15 fps in monochrome operation. It can very much scroll, though you are right, one would typically use page up/down functionality. But you'd not really have to wait.