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Unlikely I think as if they weren’t iron clad, they would muffle up and prepare for the wrongful termination lawsuit that will only be greater if they lie about

Unlikely I think as if they weren’t iron clad, they would muffle up and prepare for the wrongful termination lawsuit that will only be greater if they lie about the departure. Since a lie would be slander, damage reputation and lead to lots more money. I think them issuing this statement means they feel confident in their defense. It also being so specific seems more credible since that’s something to easy to verify (emailing company info out of company).

tdeck 6y ago
A wrongful termination lawsuit will drag on for years, and won't conclude until the discontent surrounding this particular issue has dissipated.
- prepend 6y ago
  Certainly, but that’s monetary damages. I don’t think this matters from a PR perspective and millions later vs whatever now is hard arithmetic.
monocasa 6y ago
How much is a wrongful termination going to cost them? Max a couple million? How much do they lose from the PR of gutting their AI ethics division of people who didn't toe the company line? More than a couple million easily, IMO. I can see them being just willing to take the loss on the wrongful termination if they get to smear her on the way out and think they can get her to accept a deal in the end that comes with a more stringent NDA.
- JamesBarney 6y ago
  > How much do they lose from the PR of gutting their AI ethics division of people who didn't toe the company line? More than a couple million easily, IMO. Very few people really care about this issue enough to permanently change their behavior. My family was pretty upset about Gebru firing but when I visited all of their computers were still defaulting to search Google instead of Bing or duckduckgo. A lawsuit where they lied about firing someone is much worse PR and then the truth about why they fired her would get out and it would be much worse. Also she hasn't denied the accusation.
  - monocasa 6y ago
    > A lawsuit where they lied about firing someone is much worse PR and then the truth about why they fired her would get out and it would be much worse. We already know they lied about firing Gebru. > Also she hasn't denied the accusation. The fact that she's not blasting the press yet isn't a point against her.
    - JamesBarney 6y ago
      Did google lie about a verifiable fact in the Gebru firing? I would doubt that. If you could find something like that I would seriously reconsider how I viewed Google's statements. But right now what we have is Google: we fired her for exfiltrating data Source close to meg as reported by newspaper: she wrote a script to exfiltrate data related Gebru Meg: no comment And your conclusion from this is Google is lying and she didn't exfiltrate data?
      - monocasa 6y ago
        > Did google lie about a verifiable fact in the Gebru firing? I would doubt that. If you could find something like that I would seriously reconsider how I viewed Google's statements. They literally denied firing her to begin with, stating that they had instead had simply accepted her resignation. > ... And your conclusion from this is Google is lying and she didn't exfiltrate data? No I'm saying there's probably more information that we're missing that completely changes the circumstances (as was the case if you only looked at Google's statements on Gebru's firing). The word on the street is that she saw a wrongful termination coming and made backups of emails to discuss with her lawyers.
        JamesBarney 6y ago
        > They literally denied firing her to begin with, stating that they had instead had simply accepted her resignation. Gebru sent a conditional resignation(ultimatum) letter to Google. Google rejected those conditions and accepted her resignation. Whether or not you count that as resigned or fired is a definitional issue. But legally there are many jurisdictions that consider an ultimatum letter a resignation. The general rule has been "Would a reasonable person who read this letter conclude they had the intention of quitting if their conditions were not met?". And Gebru's letter really made it seem like she has every intention of quitting if her conditions were not met. So this is definitely not lying in an easily verifiable way. > No I'm saying there's probably more information that we're missing that completely changes the circumstances (as was the case if you only looked at Google's statements on Gebru's firing). This is probably true, I'm not saying we know the whole story. I'm arguing that it is highly probably(>90%) she exfiltrated data from Google. > The word on the street is that she saw a wrongful termination coming and made backups of emails to discuss with her lawyers. This might be entirely possible, but this also gave them reason to terminate her so it seems like a very bad move.

tdeck 6y ago

A wrongful termination lawsuit will drag on for years, and won't conclude until the discontent surrounding this particular issue has dissipated.

prepend 6y ago
Certainly, but that’s monetary damages. I don’t think this matters from a PR perspective and millions later vs whatever now is hard arithmetic.

monocasa 6y ago

How much is a wrongful termination going to cost them? Max a couple million? How much do they lose from the PR of gutting their AI ethics division of people who didn't toe the company line? More than a couple million easily, IMO. I can see them being just willing to take the loss on the wrongful termination if they get to smear her on the way out and think they can get her to accept a deal in the end that comes with a more stringent NDA.

JamesBarney 6y ago
> How much do they lose from the PR of gutting their AI ethics division of people who didn't toe the company line? More than a couple million easily, IMO. Very few people really care about this issue enough to permanently change their behavior. My family was pretty upset about Gebru firing but when I visited all of their computers were still defaulting to search Google instead of Bing or duckduckgo. A lawsuit where they lied about firing someone is much worse PR and then the truth about why they fired her would get out and it would be much worse. Also she hasn't denied the accusation.
- monocasa 6y ago
  > A lawsuit where they lied about firing someone is much worse PR and then the truth about why they fired her would get out and it would be much worse. We already know they lied about firing Gebru. > Also she hasn't denied the accusation. The fact that she's not blasting the press yet isn't a point against her.
  - JamesBarney 6y ago
    Did google lie about a verifiable fact in the Gebru firing? I would doubt that. If you could find something like that I would seriously reconsider how I viewed Google's statements. But right now what we have is Google: we fired her for exfiltrating data Source close to meg as reported by newspaper: she wrote a script to exfiltrate data related Gebru Meg: no comment And your conclusion from this is Google is lying and she didn't exfiltrate data?
    - monocasa 6y ago
      > Did google lie about a verifiable fact in the Gebru firing? I would doubt that. If you could find something like that I would seriously reconsider how I viewed Google's statements. They literally denied firing her to begin with, stating that they had instead had simply accepted her resignation. > ... And your conclusion from this is Google is lying and she didn't exfiltrate data? No I'm saying there's probably more information that we're missing that completely changes the circumstances (as was the case if you only looked at Google's statements on Gebru's firing). The word on the street is that she saw a wrongful termination coming and made backups of emails to discuss with her lawyers.
      - JamesBarney 6y ago
        > They literally denied firing her to begin with, stating that they had instead had simply accepted her resignation. Gebru sent a conditional resignation(ultimatum) letter to Google. Google rejected those conditions and accepted her resignation. Whether or not you count that as resigned or fired is a definitional issue. But legally there are many jurisdictions that consider an ultimatum letter a resignation. The general rule has been "Would a reasonable person who read this letter conclude they had the intention of quitting if their conditions were not met?". And Gebru's letter really made it seem like she has every intention of quitting if her conditions were not met. So this is definitely not lying in an easily verifiable way. > No I'm saying there's probably more information that we're missing that completely changes the circumstances (as was the case if you only looked at Google's statements on Gebru's firing). This is probably true, I'm not saying we know the whole story. I'm arguing that it is highly probably(>90%) she exfiltrated data from Google. > The word on the street is that she saw a wrongful termination coming and made backups of emails to discuss with her lawyers. This might be entirely possible, but this also gave them reason to terminate her so it seems like a very bad move.