4 ms·

I can't agree because the alternative would be exposing those unstable private APIs over the Wayland protocol, which would probably not please you either. Some

I can't agree because the alternative would be exposing those unstable private APIs over the Wayland protocol, which would probably not please you either. Some of those X11 APIs are not actually stable and don't actually work everywhere too, they require special support from the window manager.

Blikkentrekker 6y ago
The issue is that the a.p.i. is not stable and not standardized. On X11, what I described can be done in a stable, standardized way; on Wayland, it requires hacking the compositor's internals in semi-supported, unstable ways. These are the differences in features whereof I spoke that make Wayland and unrealistic platform for many users in it's current state.
- cycloptic 6y ago
  But the thing is it's not really standardized or stable in X11 either, most client-to-client communications are done through various window properties which are not technically part of the protocol and support for them varies between window managers. If your window manager doesn't support it then it's the same, you have to hack the window manager's internals. Honestly, whatever advanced feature it is that you want would be much better achieved by creating a kwin script or gnome extension and then going from there, I believe there is work underway to stabilize some APIs for both of those but as with X window managers, there is a lot of functionality there and there is no guarantee they will stabilize exactly what it is that what you want.
  - Blikkentrekker 6y ago
    Do you know a single modern window manager of note that does not support E.W.M.H.? The “if” on X11 at this stage is a theoretical obscurity with every modern window manager of note supporting it, with the user being confident that it shall remain stable; on Wayland, the reality is that every single compositor has it's own own, typically unstable ways of doing this, though Sway is the one that is committed to stabilizing it and wants it's way of doing these things to become a standard, but that is of little use when the others are not picking it up.
    - cycloptic 6y ago
      Plenty of older window managers don't support it correctly or use non-standard properties. Plenty of newer window managers have non-standard internal properties for unstable features too. I would not say that Sway is doing anything special here, what they have done is exactly what I was saying earlier: placed the unstable private APIs in the Wayland protocol, with all the problems that entails. Applications should probably not be consuming those APIs directly, they will likely want to go through an abstraction layer.

Blikkentrekker 6y ago

The issue is that the a.p.i. is not stable and not standardized. On X11, what I described can be done in a stable, standardized way; on Wayland, it requires hacking the compositor's internals in semi-supported, unstable ways. These are the differences in features whereof I spoke that make Wayland and unrealistic platform for many users in it's current state.

cycloptic 6y ago
But the thing is it's not really standardized or stable in X11 either, most client-to-client communications are done through various window properties which are not technically part of the protocol and support for them varies between window managers. If your window manager doesn't support it then it's the same, you have to hack the window manager's internals. Honestly, whatever advanced feature it is that you want would be much better achieved by creating a kwin script or gnome extension and then going from there, I believe there is work underway to stabilize some APIs for both of those but as with X window managers, there is a lot of functionality there and there is no guarantee they will stabilize exactly what it is that what you want.
- Blikkentrekker 6y ago
  Do you know a single modern window manager of note that does not support E.W.M.H.? The “if” on X11 at this stage is a theoretical obscurity with every modern window manager of note supporting it, with the user being confident that it shall remain stable; on Wayland, the reality is that every single compositor has it's own own, typically unstable ways of doing this, though Sway is the one that is committed to stabilizing it and wants it's way of doing these things to become a standard, but that is of little use when the others are not picking it up.
  - cycloptic 6y ago
    Plenty of older window managers don't support it correctly or use non-standard properties. Plenty of newer window managers have non-standard internal properties for unstable features too. I would not say that Sway is doing anything special here, what they have done is exactly what I was saying earlier: placed the unstable private APIs in the Wayland protocol, with all the problems that entails. Applications should probably not be consuming those APIs directly, they will likely want to go through an abstraction layer.