8 ms·

I continue to be astonished that anyone still comes to the USA without either a specific rule allowing his activity (e.g. tourism, negotiating contracts) or a c

I continue to be astonished that anyone still comes to the USA without either a specific rule allowing his activity (e.g. tourism, negotiating contracts) or a consultation with a US immigration lawyer. Aren't there enough horror stories? Isn't the craziness well known abroad? In most of the world people who want to be tourists in the USA dread the extensive and humiliating application interview, questionnaire, and documentation process just to get a visa. The same is required to change planes at a US airport. The process is byzantine and irrational. Read all the available documents and hire a lawyer if anything seems uncertain. The border authorities routinely retain old documents, especially those submitted in error, and use them in a Kafkaesque process to deny all future permissions. Every thing you say or send to the government can be reinterpreted and used against you forever. It would be best to consult a lawyer every time you interact with CBP, though that would be expensive.

akkartik 15y ago
Is this any different from other countries? I'm just surprised you expect to go to any first-world country and work without a permit. For a very broad definition of work. London requires a visa for even changing planes. The paperwork for having your parents visit is even more onerous, I'm told. If you have a small child you're required to hire a nanny before they'll let your parents visit. So yeah all immigration authorities are moronic. OP said he's travelled all over the EU. Well, I assume he has an EU passport?
- davidw 15y ago
  > Is this any different from other countries? Very much so. Here in Italy for instance, I've known several people who have spent years here illegally, performing useful work. Sure, Italy has a large underground economy in any case, but still...
  - dangero 15y ago
    I think the key here is "illegally". He could have marked, "Tourist" on his visa application and he would have been let in, but he didn't.
    - christoph 15y ago
      I've marked business on my visa waiver customs form and the border officer has written WT (Waiver Tourist) on my passport around 50% of the time. Sometimes I've been asked a barrage of questions (company i'm working for, goods in my possession, amount of money in cash, amount of credit available to me, etc.), other times, not a single question. The whole process can seem very hit and miss depending on the customs officer you are getting and the mood they are in. As much as I love the US, it does feel these days as though they are segregating themselves from the rest of the business world. I had to queue at O'Hare (Chicago) for over 2.5hrs after a 8.5hr flight to get to the customs desk on my recent visit - how is this acceptable in any first world country?
      - X-Istence 15y ago
        2.5 hrs, you are lucky. The last time I came in from Amsterdam to Chicago apparently 6 or 7 other planes landed as well, and they only had 6 booths open to handle the traffic. I was in line for 6 hours, luckily my layover in Chicago was 10 hours for my flight to Denver, but it was insane... people did come by with water bottles ... FOR SALE.
    - varjag 15y ago
      Lying on your visa application is a punishable offense. It is written right there on the form.
      - jrockway 15y ago
        Crossing the street against the light is a punishable offense. Giving a friend an MP3 is a punishable offense. The rules are meant to be ignored.
        anigbrowl 15y ago
        In this case the punishment is potentially much more severe and there is no statute of limitations. The rules badly require changing, but ignoring them is unwise.
        15y ago
  - akkartik 15y ago
    I thought WildUtah was complaining about stupid laws, not 'undocumented features' like lax enforcement.
    - davidw 15y ago
      I think that coming to Italy to do a course would absolutely not be a problem. They might hassle you for some taxes or something, but I can't see them simply turning you around at the airport. Yeah, you can't stay for a year and work without getting the relevant documentation, and they'll probably look more closely if you come from, say, Kenya (you'd probably need a visa), rather than the US, but... still, I think things in the US are particularly fucked up. For instance: for me to live in Italy legally, I have to be married to my wife - full stop. For my wife to go to the US, she has to spend hundreds of dollars, travel to various US embassies, submit to a medical examination, and spend lots of time waiting. And she has a doctorate in biochemistry, is eminently employable, and is the wife and mother of US citizens.
      - tokenadult 15y ago
        For my wife to go to the US, she has to spend hundreds of dollars, travel to various US embassies, submit to a medical examination, and spend lots of time waiting. [citation needed]
        davidw 15y ago
        Look it up; I'm not exaggerating just to make some kind of political point, those are the facts. http://travel.state.gov/visa/immigrants/types/types_2991.html http://travel.state.gov/visa/immigrants/types/types_2991.htm... And beyond looking it up, we started going through the procedure several years ago, but ended up deciding to stay in Italy for the time being, so it's something I know first hand. Here in Italy, the land of bureaucracy, it required one and only one office visit with my wife to get my "permesso di soggiorno" once we were married. Getting one of those without being married is a huge hassle, and exposes one to the full brunt of Italian bureaucracy, but the US should be "better than that".
  - oscardelben 15y ago
    I don't know why you're being downvoted, but I can confirm what you said, being an italian citizen myself. That said, the first time I went to the US with a Tourist visa I couldn't believe how many questions they asked me. Most of them things like: "Are you a terrorist? Do you hate America?, and things like that". I think those questions as are stupid as they are an insult to one's intelligence. The boarder police also was doing their best to try to trick me and my friends into saying that we were there for work. There's something definitely wrong with all of this.
    - unwantedLetters 15y ago
      I understand that the US Immigration guys can be fairly hard to deal with. But this is really not what I experienced at all. I studied at a university in the US and I hold an Indian passport. I travelled in and out of the country multiple times, but not once was I asked questions like "Are you a terrorist?". I was only held by the officials once at immigration for 20 minutes. This was when I transferred from one university to another (You don't need to re-apply for a visa for this which is why it leads to some confusion cause you are not going to the university mentioned on the visa). I never felt like anyone was trying to trick me, or insult me, or ever asked me questions like those above. Do they treat students differently? And has anyone else ever experienced the issues mentioned by the parent poster?
      - davidw 15y ago
        Plenty of people get treated decently, it's not like everyone in Homeland Security are evil jack-booted thugs. I suppose most of them are pretty good people doing their jobs with the rules they have to enforce. However... the system does not work nearly as well as it should, and is based on creaky, broken rules.
      - oscardelben 15y ago
        Those questions appeared in a questionaire given to everyone inside the airplaine. A friend of mine told me that it wasn't the first time he saw that questionaire. It became kind of a joke after it.
      - 15y ago
- anghyflawn 15y ago
  The UK has a visa waiver for transit passengers (they're not that idiotic, they want Heathrow to keep being the big hub that it is; you do get to talk to an officer, but you generally don't need to apply in advance). Generally UK immigration is bad (like having to turn up and give your fingerprints every time you apply for a visa, so no application by post; in my case, that means a flight of 1,100 km and back every 6 months). Here's a blog post according to which being on a dissertation defense committee also requires a work permit (according to possibly overzealous HR): http://timesonline.typepad.com/dons_life/2010/10/world-class-universities-vs-the-human-resources-compliance-unit.html http://timesonline.typepad.com/dons_life/2010/10/world-class... Most Schengen countries are more or less straightforward per se, though I'm not sure how his case would pan out (here in Norway, according to the immigration authority's webpage, "researchers and lecturers" are exempt from the work permit requirement, though I'm not sure how broad that category is).
  - ipince 15y ago
    The UK has a visa waiver for transit passengers Last time I checked, the waiver only applied if you were coming to/from a whitelist of countries, which included the US. In the past, I've had to explicitly avoid Heathrow because of its visa requirements (and I was just on transit)... I think they also have a blacklist of countries for which you need a visa regardless of where you're coming/going from/to. The list includes Colombia, for example.
    - anghyflawn 15y ago
      It's all here: http://www.ukvisas.gov.uk/en/howtoapply/infs/inf20transit http://www.ukvisas.gov.uk/en/howtoapply/infs/inf20transit. Tl;dr: there is a whitelist for transit visa waivers, so citizens of some countries need to apply for a transit visa in advance. However, you can apply from a waiver if you normally need a transit visa but you are going to/from the US, Canada, Australia or New Zealand. You can also get a waiver if you are resident in the US, Canada or EU/EEA, irrespective of your citizenship.
- prpon 15y ago
  I hold an Indian passport and I recently got thrown out of a plane to Spain via Heathrow right before it took off. They said, I didn't have a transit visa. I was changing planes in the same terminal and the total time I was to spend in Heathrow was 2 hours. I have a Schengen visa. No, that doesn't work for London. I begged and pleaded for hours at the gate. Nothing. The worst part is, I did the same route for years with no problem. Apparently rules changed recently. Trust me, It really is awful being that person who gets discriminated based on where you are born.
  - evangineer 15y ago
    The UK isn't part of Schengen, that's a continental Europe thing rather than covering all EU members: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Area http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Area
    - sapper2 15y ago
      Yeah... I learned that the hard way, too. I can't describe how stupid I felt at that moment...
    - Lucadg 15y ago
      Bangkok, Buenos Aires or Sydney are not Schengen neither but they don't require a visa for airport transit. That's just politicians covering their assess in case some terrorist blows up a plane on transit flight.
  - bjelkeman-again 15y ago
    Yeah the whole transit visa thing in the UK is pretty stupid. Especially when you go through terminal 5 at Heathrow. You can get out without passing an immigration officer. So why do you need a visa? Idiots.
    - bjelkeman-again 15y ago
      That was supposed to be "can't get out [of the terminal] without passing an immigration officer". Sorry. :)
- Lucadg 15y ago
  I traveled for years doing business everywhere in the world and I always did it on a tourist visa: US, Australia, Europe, China, Turkey, South America even Russia (notoriously bureaucratic for these things)... anywhere. And all the people I met did the same. Business travel wouldn't probably even be possible. You've got to catch a plane and go, fast. If we start treating business people like immigrants on a boat we are doomed.
jvdh 15y ago
Dude, seriously? We are talking about the land of the free, and you continue to be astonished that people from first world countries just go to the US to do business and then leave again? The Netherlands has had a visa waiver program with the US for a very long time. Since the author has entered the US a couple of times before to do very similar things, I don't blame him for just going. I do blame the company for just paying him and expecting him to show up without checking whether that is legal.
- delackner 15y ago
  You didnt read the fine print. free for american citizens. i dont know any country that treats non-citizens well, but there are many who treat them better.

akkartik 15y ago

Is this any different from other countries? I'm just surprised you expect to go to any first-world country and work without a permit. For a very broad definition of work. London requires a visa for even changing planes. The paperwork for having your parents visit is even more onerous, I'm told. If you have a small child you're required to hire a nanny before they'll let your parents visit. So yeah all immigration authorities are moronic. OP said he's travelled all over the EU. Well, I assume he has an EU passport?

davidw 15y ago
> Is this any different from other countries? Very much so. Here in Italy for instance, I've known several people who have spent years here illegally, performing useful work. Sure, Italy has a large underground economy in any case, but still...
- dangero 15y ago
  I think the key here is "illegally". He could have marked, "Tourist" on his visa application and he would have been let in, but he didn't.
  - christoph 15y ago
    I've marked business on my visa waiver customs form and the border officer has written WT (Waiver Tourist) on my passport around 50% of the time. Sometimes I've been asked a barrage of questions (company i'm working for, goods in my possession, amount of money in cash, amount of credit available to me, etc.), other times, not a single question. The whole process can seem very hit and miss depending on the customs officer you are getting and the mood they are in. As much as I love the US, it does feel these days as though they are segregating themselves from the rest of the business world. I had to queue at O'Hare (Chicago) for over 2.5hrs after a 8.5hr flight to get to the customs desk on my recent visit - how is this acceptable in any first world country?
    - X-Istence 15y ago
      2.5 hrs, you are lucky. The last time I came in from Amsterdam to Chicago apparently 6 or 7 other planes landed as well, and they only had 6 booths open to handle the traffic. I was in line for 6 hours, luckily my layover in Chicago was 10 hours for my flight to Denver, but it was insane... people did come by with water bottles ... FOR SALE.
  - varjag 15y ago
    Lying on your visa application is a punishable offense. It is written right there on the form.
    - jrockway 15y ago
      Crossing the street against the light is a punishable offense. Giving a friend an MP3 is a punishable offense. The rules are meant to be ignored.
      - anigbrowl 15y ago
        In this case the punishment is potentially much more severe and there is no statute of limitations. The rules badly require changing, but ignoring them is unwise.
      - 15y ago
- akkartik 15y ago
  I thought WildUtah was complaining about stupid laws, not 'undocumented features' like lax enforcement.
  - davidw 15y ago
    I think that coming to Italy to do a course would absolutely not be a problem. They might hassle you for some taxes or something, but I can't see them simply turning you around at the airport. Yeah, you can't stay for a year and work without getting the relevant documentation, and they'll probably look more closely if you come from, say, Kenya (you'd probably need a visa), rather than the US, but... still, I think things in the US are particularly fucked up. For instance: for me to live in Italy legally, I have to be married to my wife - full stop. For my wife to go to the US, she has to spend hundreds of dollars, travel to various US embassies, submit to a medical examination, and spend lots of time waiting. And she has a doctorate in biochemistry, is eminently employable, and is the wife and mother of US citizens.
    - tokenadult 15y ago
      For my wife to go to the US, she has to spend hundreds of dollars, travel to various US embassies, submit to a medical examination, and spend lots of time waiting. [citation needed]
      - davidw 15y ago
        Look it up; I'm not exaggerating just to make some kind of political point, those are the facts. http://travel.state.gov/visa/immigrants/types/types_2991.html http://travel.state.gov/visa/immigrants/types/types_2991.htm... And beyond looking it up, we started going through the procedure several years ago, but ended up deciding to stay in Italy for the time being, so it's something I know first hand. Here in Italy, the land of bureaucracy, it required one and only one office visit with my wife to get my "permesso di soggiorno" once we were married. Getting one of those without being married is a huge hassle, and exposes one to the full brunt of Italian bureaucracy, but the US should be "better than that".
- oscardelben 15y ago
  I don't know why you're being downvoted, but I can confirm what you said, being an italian citizen myself. That said, the first time I went to the US with a Tourist visa I couldn't believe how many questions they asked me. Most of them things like: "Are you a terrorist? Do you hate America?, and things like that". I think those questions as are stupid as they are an insult to one's intelligence. The boarder police also was doing their best to try to trick me and my friends into saying that we were there for work. There's something definitely wrong with all of this.
  - unwantedLetters 15y ago
    I understand that the US Immigration guys can be fairly hard to deal with. But this is really not what I experienced at all. I studied at a university in the US and I hold an Indian passport. I travelled in and out of the country multiple times, but not once was I asked questions like "Are you a terrorist?". I was only held by the officials once at immigration for 20 minutes. This was when I transferred from one university to another (You don't need to re-apply for a visa for this which is why it leads to some confusion cause you are not going to the university mentioned on the visa). I never felt like anyone was trying to trick me, or insult me, or ever asked me questions like those above. Do they treat students differently? And has anyone else ever experienced the issues mentioned by the parent poster?
    - davidw 15y ago
      Plenty of people get treated decently, it's not like everyone in Homeland Security are evil jack-booted thugs. I suppose most of them are pretty good people doing their jobs with the rules they have to enforce. However... the system does not work nearly as well as it should, and is based on creaky, broken rules.
    - oscardelben 15y ago
      Those questions appeared in a questionaire given to everyone inside the airplaine. A friend of mine told me that it wasn't the first time he saw that questionaire. It became kind of a joke after it.
    - 15y ago
anghyflawn 15y ago
The UK has a visa waiver for transit passengers (they're not that idiotic, they want Heathrow to keep being the big hub that it is; you do get to talk to an officer, but you generally don't need to apply in advance). Generally UK immigration is bad (like having to turn up and give your fingerprints every time you apply for a visa, so no application by post; in my case, that means a flight of 1,100 km and back every 6 months). Here's a blog post according to which being on a dissertation defense committee also requires a work permit (according to possibly overzealous HR): http://timesonline.typepad.com/dons_life/2010/10/world-class-universities-vs-the-human-resources-compliance-unit.html http://timesonline.typepad.com/dons_life/2010/10/world-class... Most Schengen countries are more or less straightforward per se, though I'm not sure how his case would pan out (here in Norway, according to the immigration authority's webpage, "researchers and lecturers" are exempt from the work permit requirement, though I'm not sure how broad that category is).
- ipince 15y ago
  The UK has a visa waiver for transit passengers Last time I checked, the waiver only applied if you were coming to/from a whitelist of countries, which included the US. In the past, I've had to explicitly avoid Heathrow because of its visa requirements (and I was just on transit)... I think they also have a blacklist of countries for which you need a visa regardless of where you're coming/going from/to. The list includes Colombia, for example.
  - anghyflawn 15y ago
    It's all here: http://www.ukvisas.gov.uk/en/howtoapply/infs/inf20transit http://www.ukvisas.gov.uk/en/howtoapply/infs/inf20transit. Tl;dr: there is a whitelist for transit visa waivers, so citizens of some countries need to apply for a transit visa in advance. However, you can apply from a waiver if you normally need a transit visa but you are going to/from the US, Canada, Australia or New Zealand. You can also get a waiver if you are resident in the US, Canada or EU/EEA, irrespective of your citizenship.
prpon 15y ago
I hold an Indian passport and I recently got thrown out of a plane to Spain via Heathrow right before it took off. They said, I didn't have a transit visa. I was changing planes in the same terminal and the total time I was to spend in Heathrow was 2 hours. I have a Schengen visa. No, that doesn't work for London. I begged and pleaded for hours at the gate. Nothing. The worst part is, I did the same route for years with no problem. Apparently rules changed recently. Trust me, It really is awful being that person who gets discriminated based on where you are born.
- evangineer 15y ago
  The UK isn't part of Schengen, that's a continental Europe thing rather than covering all EU members: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Area http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Area
  - sapper2 15y ago
    Yeah... I learned that the hard way, too. I can't describe how stupid I felt at that moment...
  - Lucadg 15y ago
    Bangkok, Buenos Aires or Sydney are not Schengen neither but they don't require a visa for airport transit. That's just politicians covering their assess in case some terrorist blows up a plane on transit flight.
- bjelkeman-again 15y ago
  Yeah the whole transit visa thing in the UK is pretty stupid. Especially when you go through terminal 5 at Heathrow. You can get out without passing an immigration officer. So why do you need a visa? Idiots.
  - bjelkeman-again 15y ago
    That was supposed to be "can't get out [of the terminal] without passing an immigration officer". Sorry. :)
Lucadg 15y ago
I traveled for years doing business everywhere in the world and I always did it on a tourist visa: US, Australia, Europe, China, Turkey, South America even Russia (notoriously bureaucratic for these things)... anywhere. And all the people I met did the same. Business travel wouldn't probably even be possible. You've got to catch a plane and go, fast. If we start treating business people like immigrants on a boat we are doomed.

jvdh 15y ago

Dude, seriously? We are talking about the land of the free, and you continue to be astonished that people from first world countries just go to the US to do business and then leave again? The Netherlands has had a visa waiver program with the US for a very long time. Since the author has entered the US a couple of times before to do very similar things, I don't blame him for just going. I do blame the company for just paying him and expecting him to show up without checking whether that is legal.

delackner 15y ago
You didnt read the fine print. free for american citizens. i dont know any country that treats non-citizens well, but there are many who treat them better.