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For every one of these cases, there are likely tons more that have gone undetected. Our open institutions don't work in a world filled with rich nation states w

For every one of these cases, there are likely tons more that have gone undetected. Our open institutions don't work in a world filled with rich nation states with bad intentions and a populace and politicians totally misinformed about the current threat and/or unwilling to do anything about it. China has bested the US and we should at least be honest about it.

thaumasiotes 6y ago
> Our open institutions don't work in a world filled with rich nation states with bad intentions How does that sentiment apply here? Suppose the maximum possible malice on the part of the CCP, the PLA, and Song Chen. What could they have accomplished by getting a neurologist into a research project?
- refurb 6y ago
  Stealing IP that rightfully belonged to Stanford, starting their own institute in China based on it and then owning the entire field?
  - thaumasiotes 6y ago
    The concept of "stealing IP that rightfully belonged to Stanford" does not obviously apply to a research university. There is no way for Stanford to claim ownership of research IP without publishing that IP. If the CCP wants to steal it, they can read Stanford's papers. Then, on a more fundamental level, the more people who know how to do neurology research, the better. There's no way for the world to be made worse through too much neurology research. The more they do in China, the less everyone else needs to do everywhere else. But the even more important problem with your scenario is that it is completely unaffected by whether, at the time she's studying at Stanford, Song Chen is also on the PLA payroll. Learning Stanford's research methods and then moving on with their lives is the entire point of anyone joining a research project at Stanford. If she hadn't been formally employed by the PLA, she would have been not just entitled, but expected to do everything you just described. And it was fine in that hypothetical case. She got a permit specifically allowing her to do it. So why isn't it fine here?
    - refurb 6y ago
      There is no way for Stanford to claim ownership of research IP without publishing that IP. Have you heard of research getting scooped? Take research that isn’t complete, publish/patent first and now it’s yours. Now China can claim IP ownership so Stanford can’t use it. So no, there is no benefit to research being freely disseminated especially to authoritarian countries that are politically opposed to the West. And no, the point of the program is not to help transfer Stanford tech to China. It’s to train scientists who can hopefully independently develop their own science.
      - thaumasiotes 6y ago
        > Now China can claim IP ownership so Stanford can’t use it. Hmm? How would that work? Please provide an example of what you have in mind. Research getting scooped is about fighting over who gets official credit for the discovery.
        refurb 6y ago
        The US, and most countries have moved to a first to file patent system. Whoever files first owns the IP. The Chinese could further develop the research than patent it in the US. If they don’t patent it, they could publish it ahead of Stanford and get credit for the discovery. It happens all the time even ignoring China’s growing presence. Scooping research can be either publishing or patenting.

thaumasiotes 6y ago

> Our open institutions don't work in a world filled with rich nation states with bad intentions How does that sentiment apply here? Suppose the maximum possible malice on the part of the CCP, the PLA, and Song Chen. What could they have accomplished by getting a neurologist into a research project?

refurb 6y ago
Stealing IP that rightfully belonged to Stanford, starting their own institute in China based on it and then owning the entire field?
- thaumasiotes 6y ago
  The concept of "stealing IP that rightfully belonged to Stanford" does not obviously apply to a research university. There is no way for Stanford to claim ownership of research IP without publishing that IP. If the CCP wants to steal it, they can read Stanford's papers. Then, on a more fundamental level, the more people who know how to do neurology research, the better. There's no way for the world to be made worse through too much neurology research. The more they do in China, the less everyone else needs to do everywhere else. But the even more important problem with your scenario is that it is completely unaffected by whether, at the time she's studying at Stanford, Song Chen is also on the PLA payroll. Learning Stanford's research methods and then moving on with their lives is the entire point of anyone joining a research project at Stanford. If she hadn't been formally employed by the PLA, she would have been not just entitled, but expected to do everything you just described. And it was fine in that hypothetical case. She got a permit specifically allowing her to do it. So why isn't it fine here?
  - refurb 6y ago
    There is no way for Stanford to claim ownership of research IP without publishing that IP. Have you heard of research getting scooped? Take research that isn’t complete, publish/patent first and now it’s yours. Now China can claim IP ownership so Stanford can’t use it. So no, there is no benefit to research being freely disseminated especially to authoritarian countries that are politically opposed to the West. And no, the point of the program is not to help transfer Stanford tech to China. It’s to train scientists who can hopefully independently develop their own science.
    - thaumasiotes 6y ago
      > Now China can claim IP ownership so Stanford can’t use it. Hmm? How would that work? Please provide an example of what you have in mind. Research getting scooped is about fighting over who gets official credit for the discovery.
      - refurb 6y ago
        The US, and most countries have moved to a first to file patent system. Whoever files first owns the IP. The Chinese could further develop the research than patent it in the US. If they don’t patent it, they could publish it ahead of Stanford and get credit for the discovery. It happens all the time even ignoring China’s growing presence. Scooping research can be either publishing or patenting.