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I'd make a wild guess that when parent is talking about 'control', they mean that if a miner is located within China, the Chinese government has the ability to

I'd make a wild guess that when parent is talking about 'control', they mean that if a miner is located within China, the Chinese government has the ability to put a gun to that miners head and tell them what to do.

gavrif 6y ago
With that kind of control, they could just put a gun to anyone's head and ask them to start mining bitcoin and do it the way they want them to. It wouldn't have to depend on how many bitcoin miners are in China at the moment.
- dontreact 6y ago
  Fortunately, it is immensely more difficult for the Chinese state to exercise its monopoly on force outside of Chinese borders.
- nostrademons 6y ago
  It's a lot easier to point a gun to someone's head and say "Switch your equipment over to the network pipe that we give you" rather than point a gun to someone's head and say "Build a datacenter, secure an extremely large source of power, buy a few thousand Bitcoin mining boards, hook them all up in this extremely technical way, and then switch it over to the network pipe we give you." The gun in the head strategy works best when you're only asking your populace to do simple things. For complex, technical tasks, the usual response is "Oops, I can't concentrate while you've got a gun against my head", and then you can shoot them but that's not going to help your task get accomplished any quicker. (This is also why working conditions at say Google or Apple tend to be pretty good, and why Soviet scientists were treated relatively well even if the rest of the population wasn't.)
  - nzmsv 6y ago
    Relatively well is, well, relative :) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharashka https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharashka
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- swader999 6y ago
  I'd wager the way China would exert control on miners there would be to regulate their access to electricity.
  - usrusr 6y ago
    And exert that control in subtle ways. "We know you, we watch you. You can do what you are doing because we permit it. When we come asking for a favor you won't think twice"
  - jackTheMan 6y ago
    Even easier to put a backdoor on the newer miner boards.
- tgsovlerkhgsel 6y ago
  You can't just ask a random person to mine Bitcoin (well you can't, it just won't do much). It needs to be someone who has the mining hardware. So how many miners there are (specifically, how much mining hardware there is) matters.
dingus9 6y ago
China would benefit more by confiscating all hashrate & hoarding all of the BTC for themselves before announcing that BTC is their national currency and driving BTC price to millions per-coin. It's just as farfetched and unlikely, but anti-Bitcoiners just keep theorizing about a hostile China takeover crashing BTC price as if it's feasible, without considering the inverse.
- throwaway1777 6y ago
  Because China has already announced DCEP as their national crypto. So the chance of them making btc their currency is basically none while China has already cracked down on btc in various ways in the past. They could in theory use btc as some kind of reserve or exchange currency, but not sure why they would need to when everyone has to bend to their will to trade with them.
- eru 6y ago
  The rest of the world can just use a forked BTC, then. (Or use one of the already established alternatives.)
worker767424 6y ago
No need to bother with a gun. Just threaten to take 100 points off their social credit score or ban them from WeChat.
inopinatus 6y ago
The implication, that no other nation-state may use force to assert control of a strategic economic resource, is in contradiction with both history and common sense. GP is ipso facto calling out lazy casual racism, but framed constructively because they’re better at it than me.
- jacksnipe 6y ago
  Uh, no, other countries don’t have 65% of the hashing capacity. The USA could put a gun to miners heads, but it wouldn’t give them 51%, so there’s no point.
  - inopinatus 6y ago
    Uh-huh. The agencies of, let’s say, the US federal government, or the Kremlin, or similarly those of governments in the UK, France, Germany, all have no history of overseas intervention or onshore direct action to preserve economic interests. Got it.
    - nyolfen 6y ago
      if 51% of hash power were located in the US, the statement would have been about the US. it is not something special about china that makes this the case, only the fact that it is a sovereign state with the means and will to control activity in its territory, just like every other functioning state. one could also make the case that china might be more likely to intervene in such a way in the economic affairs of its subjects than a liberal democracy, but that is a secondary argument.
      - inopinatus 6y ago
        No, China is not a person with a single will. The assumption/assertion that the mining equipment may as well all be sitting under MSS guard in Beijing is horsecrap.
        renewiltord 6y ago
3np 6y ago
"The mountains are high and the Emperor is far away". Neither mining pools (who practically have the actual power over transaction inclusion an ordering) nor the miners are cooperating. I'm also certain the CCP wouldn't be practically able to locate and control all of them that easily.
- asdfasgasdgasdg 6y ago
  The emperor is only a few tens of milliseconds away, no matter where you are in China.
- ALittleLight 6y ago
  I'd assume their intelligence services are identifying miners now while the miners don't have incentive to hide. If China wanted to strike at bitcoin they could do it in one fell swoop.
- nomay 6y ago
  All the small dams or whatever power generator they are using are state owned property, hell even all the available internet access, and since they are the biggest supplier of money laundering vehicles and aids the capital outflow that the party hates to the bone, you better assume that they all have tabs being kept on already.
- IgorPartola 6y ago
  Hypothetically how long would it take the country that produces most of the computing hardware in the world to simply direct all their factories to build mining ASICs as quickly as possible while not exporting any more GPUs? Of course everyone would know what comes next but I am just curious.
- retrac 6y ago
  Even in Western countries, if draconian anti-cryptocurrency laws were passed and even slightly enforced, it would kill, or at least force into regulation, large-scale mining operations.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
jensvdh 6y ago
That's not how China works.

gavrif 6y ago

With that kind of control, they could just put a gun to anyone's head and ask them to start mining bitcoin and do it the way they want them to. It wouldn't have to depend on how many bitcoin miners are in China at the moment.

dontreact 6y ago
Fortunately, it is immensely more difficult for the Chinese state to exercise its monopoly on force outside of Chinese borders.
nostrademons 6y ago
It's a lot easier to point a gun to someone's head and say "Switch your equipment over to the network pipe that we give you" rather than point a gun to someone's head and say "Build a datacenter, secure an extremely large source of power, buy a few thousand Bitcoin mining boards, hook them all up in this extremely technical way, and then switch it over to the network pipe we give you." The gun in the head strategy works best when you're only asking your populace to do simple things. For complex, technical tasks, the usual response is "Oops, I can't concentrate while you've got a gun against my head", and then you can shoot them but that's not going to help your task get accomplished any quicker. (This is also why working conditions at say Google or Apple tend to be pretty good, and why Soviet scientists were treated relatively well even if the rest of the population wasn't.)
- nzmsv 6y ago
  Relatively well is, well, relative :) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharashka https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharashka
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
swader999 6y ago
I'd wager the way China would exert control on miners there would be to regulate their access to electricity.
- usrusr 6y ago
  And exert that control in subtle ways. "We know you, we watch you. You can do what you are doing because we permit it. When we come asking for a favor you won't think twice"
- jackTheMan 6y ago
  Even easier to put a backdoor on the newer miner boards.
tgsovlerkhgsel 6y ago
You can't just ask a random person to mine Bitcoin (well you can't, it just won't do much). It needs to be someone who has the mining hardware. So how many miners there are (specifically, how much mining hardware there is) matters.

dingus9 6y ago

China would benefit more by confiscating all hashrate & hoarding all of the BTC for themselves before announcing that BTC is their national currency and driving BTC price to millions per-coin. It's just as farfetched and unlikely, but anti-Bitcoiners just keep theorizing about a hostile China takeover crashing BTC price as if it's feasible, without considering the inverse.

throwaway1777 6y ago
Because China has already announced DCEP as their national crypto. So the chance of them making btc their currency is basically none while China has already cracked down on btc in various ways in the past. They could in theory use btc as some kind of reserve or exchange currency, but not sure why they would need to when everyone has to bend to their will to trade with them.
eru 6y ago
The rest of the world can just use a forked BTC, then. (Or use one of the already established alternatives.)

worker767424 6y ago

No need to bother with a gun. Just threaten to take 100 points off their social credit score or ban them from WeChat.

inopinatus 6y ago

The implication, that no other nation-state may use force to assert control of a strategic economic resource, is in contradiction with both history and common sense. GP is ipso facto calling out lazy casual racism, but framed constructively because they’re better at it than me.

jacksnipe 6y ago
Uh, no, other countries don’t have 65% of the hashing capacity. The USA could put a gun to miners heads, but it wouldn’t give them 51%, so there’s no point.
- inopinatus 6y ago
  Uh-huh. The agencies of, let’s say, the US federal government, or the Kremlin, or similarly those of governments in the UK, France, Germany, all have no history of overseas intervention or onshore direct action to preserve economic interests. Got it.
  - nyolfen 6y ago
    if 51% of hash power were located in the US, the statement would have been about the US. it is not something special about china that makes this the case, only the fact that it is a sovereign state with the means and will to control activity in its territory, just like every other functioning state. one could also make the case that china might be more likely to intervene in such a way in the economic affairs of its subjects than a liberal democracy, but that is a secondary argument.
    - inopinatus 6y ago
      No, China is not a person with a single will. The assumption/assertion that the mining equipment may as well all be sitting under MSS guard in Beijing is horsecrap.
      - renewiltord 6y ago

3np 6y ago

"The mountains are high and the Emperor is far away". Neither mining pools (who practically have the actual power over transaction inclusion an ordering) nor the miners are cooperating. I'm also certain the CCP wouldn't be practically able to locate and control all of them that easily.

asdfasgasdgasdg 6y ago
The emperor is only a few tens of milliseconds away, no matter where you are in China.
ALittleLight 6y ago
I'd assume their intelligence services are identifying miners now while the miners don't have incentive to hide. If China wanted to strike at bitcoin they could do it in one fell swoop.
nomay 6y ago
All the small dams or whatever power generator they are using are state owned property, hell even all the available internet access, and since they are the biggest supplier of money laundering vehicles and aids the capital outflow that the party hates to the bone, you better assume that they all have tabs being kept on already.
IgorPartola 6y ago
Hypothetically how long would it take the country that produces most of the computing hardware in the world to simply direct all their factories to build mining ASICs as quickly as possible while not exporting any more GPUs? Of course everyone would know what comes next but I am just curious.
retrac 6y ago
Even in Western countries, if draconian anti-cryptocurrency laws were passed and even slightly enforced, it would kill, or at least force into regulation, large-scale mining operations.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

jensvdh 6y ago

That's not how China works.