6 ms·

Forgive my ignorance, but what alternative is there to a chemical imbalance of some sort? Structural differences? I have schizoaffective bipolar subtype, and wo

by sekh60 6y ago

Forgive my ignorance, but what alternative is there to a chemical imbalance of some sort? Structural differences? I have schizoaffective bipolar subtype, and wouldn't mind some links to more current literature, I'm obviously very behind.

aantix 6y ago
Have you ever tried Niacin/magnesium approach for treatment?
anaphor 6y ago
It used to be the case that the theory for why people have depression was "people who are depressed don't have enough serotonin" (in very simple terms), and the reason why SSRIs work was supposed to be that they increase levels of serotonin, but scientists have found that boosting levels of serotonin alone does not help with depression. Here's a good journal article on the subject https://sci-hub.st/https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0149763415000287 https://sci-hub.st/https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/art...
- corin_ 6y ago
  If that theory is definitely wrong, it hasn't yet worked its way out of common use. Examples: NHS current website "This type of medication [SSRIs] works by increasing the level of a chemical called serotonin in your brain." https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/generalised-anxiety-disorder/treatment/ https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/generalised-anxiety-disorder/t... Wikipedia "It is believed to work by blocking the re-uptake of the chemical serotonin by neurons in the brain." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paroxetine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paroxetine etc.
  - Delk 6y ago
    I'm not sure that the reason why some (e.g. official) health information sources keep repeating that isn't just a combination of having an easy explanation and making a (benign) attempt to induce a placebo effect in unknowledgeable patients. If you either get massively technical about complex things that would make most laymen's heads spin, or shrugged your shoulders and said that we don't really know, you might miss on the potential psychological effects that you can get by projecting some kind of confidence.
- wavepruner 6y ago
  After a long battle with depression, this is how I interpret the phenomenon that "boosting" serotonin levels does not work. SSRI's do not increase the pool of available serotonin, they just artificially increase the amount that remains in the synaptic cleft, facilitating additional firing of the neuron (or for a longer duration, I'm not sure which). They do not increase a neuron's ability to synthesize serotonin and release it into the synaptic cleft at the appropriate time. SSRI's cause our neurons to reuse serotonin longer than they normally would, which is not how we evolved to use serotonin. The way this felt to me as a human interacting with the world around me was artificial happiness and artificial feelings of ease. I felt "better", but it didn't feel like it was grounded in anything real. I felt happy when happy things happened, but I also felt happy when sad things happened. Eventually it wore off and SSRI's no longer had any effect on me. I eventually tried tryptophan and B vitamins (specifically B6), which our bodies use to synthesize serotonin. I got a similar effect to when I first started SSRI's, but it felt real. I was able to be happy when something happy happened. But when something sad happened I also felt sad. This effect has endured for 4 years now. I have since found that I had a serious problem with a particular toxin which poisons many of the pathways involved with serotonin synthesis (among many many others including one of the most fundamental, the Citrate Cycle). A way around the poisoning is large doses of the appropriate nutrients. This is because the toxicity causes serious inefficiencies in their use by the body's biochemical pathways. This was my personal experience. Depression is caused by many factors and I'm sure what works for me would not work for many. It can be genetic issues, other kinds of toxins, and overwhelming amount of trauma, chronic infections, unhealthy relationships, etc. Or a combination of those.
  - pschuegr 6y ago
    Can you post more about the cause? I'm not familiar with this toxicity as a cause of depression. Thanks!
    - wavepruner 6y ago
      Sure. I usually don't bring it up unless asked because it is very controversial. Chronic mercury toxicity was the cause. I've confirmed this diagnosis with dramatic improvement to chelation therapy. I've also done some novel testing that indirectly confirms the diagnosis. It's not something you can test for directly unless you start taking biopsies of tissues you wouldn't want to cut out of someone alive. It resides in "deeper" tissues, not in the blood. The effect of mercury on biochemical pathways has been mapped out quite extensively, and we even know what and why certain genes make some people more susceptible than others. Not something you'll find in mainstream medicine, but the research is extensive and still rapidly growing. Particularly in the toxicology and chemistry circles. I use a newer chelator called emeramide. It's currently in Phase II clinical trials and will probably be approved within 10 years. Although, it can be very dangerous if someone takes a too large of a dose, and the person pushing it through FDA approval does not seem to be fully aware of how bad it can be. Generally, the sicker you are the lower the dose you need to start on. This phenomenon is extensively documented in the Facebook groups where mercury toxic people discuss their experiences and results. Emeramide binds to mercury the strongest, but also chelates other toxic metals like lead and cadmium, so those could certainly be complicating factors. Especially lead, as I grew up in a home and neighborhood with lots of it. As for where the mercury came from, the timeline of my symptoms, animal toxicology studies, and it's removal in 2001, and more, all point towards the vax(inations I received as a child. For example, I had random and inexplicable symptoms as a kid like attacks of projectile vomiting without being sick, and bloody noses that would last for hours.
astrange 6y ago
"Low serotonin" was never the actual medical position on why antidepressants worked, it was marketing. The medical position is "we don't know why they work"; some antidepressants actually lower serotonin (SNRI) and some increase it (SSRI) and they both seem to help. Also, they take weeks to take effect which doesn't make sense for a neurotransmitter effect, since Adderall (which raises dopamine) works instantly for ADHD. I've heard theories that just doing anything to your brain knocks it out of state enough to stop being depressed (eg psychadelics do this), or that antidepressants actually improve your sleep quality and your brain cleans itself up over time.
- m00x 6y ago
  Where do you see SNRI lowers serotonin? It's a re-uptake inhibitor for both serotonin and norepinephrine which keeps your body from flushing our those chemicals which raises serotonin levels as long as production is stable. High doses of SNRI will contribute to Serotonin syndrome, which makes your argument hard to believe.
  - astrange 6y ago
    Oh, I was going from memory, so I guess that part's wrong. But there are effective antidepressants that aren't strongly based on the serotonin effects SSRIs have, like trazodone (weakly increases it) and especially ketamine (doesn't do it, works better than most antidepressants, works near-instantly instead of taking weeks).
    - johnisgood 6y ago
      And I would like to add that ketamine has nothing to do with the monoamine hypothesis, it is an NMDA receptor antagonist. It has nothing to do with serotonin, dopamine, and noradrenalin. See my other comment about the growing interest in the glutamate system instead of serotonin and the like.
  - texasbigdata 6y ago
    Can you please explain what seratonin syndrome is, particularly (like the above hypnosis / nlp split) where the edge of medical literature is? Highly interested, however for some reason was previously inclided to believe the phenomenon did not exist, akin to how adrenal fatigue can't be proven.
flaque 6y ago
It’s a bit like saying a software bug is caused by “differing levels of electricity”.

by sekh60 6y ago

aantix 6y ago

Have you ever tried Niacin/magnesium approach for treatment?

anaphor 6y ago

It used to be the case that the theory for why people have depression was "people who are depressed don't have enough serotonin" (in very simple terms), and the reason why SSRIs work was supposed to be that they increase levels of serotonin, but scientists have found that boosting levels of serotonin alone does not help with depression. Here's a good journal article on the subject https://sci-hub.st/https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0149763415000287 https://sci-hub.st/https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/art...

corin_ 6y ago
If that theory is definitely wrong, it hasn't yet worked its way out of common use. Examples: NHS current website "This type of medication [SSRIs] works by increasing the level of a chemical called serotonin in your brain." https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/generalised-anxiety-disorder/treatment/ https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/generalised-anxiety-disorder/t... Wikipedia "It is believed to work by blocking the re-uptake of the chemical serotonin by neurons in the brain." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paroxetine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paroxetine etc.
- Delk 6y ago
  I'm not sure that the reason why some (e.g. official) health information sources keep repeating that isn't just a combination of having an easy explanation and making a (benign) attempt to induce a placebo effect in unknowledgeable patients. If you either get massively technical about complex things that would make most laymen's heads spin, or shrugged your shoulders and said that we don't really know, you might miss on the potential psychological effects that you can get by projecting some kind of confidence.
wavepruner 6y ago
After a long battle with depression, this is how I interpret the phenomenon that "boosting" serotonin levels does not work. SSRI's do not increase the pool of available serotonin, they just artificially increase the amount that remains in the synaptic cleft, facilitating additional firing of the neuron (or for a longer duration, I'm not sure which). They do not increase a neuron's ability to synthesize serotonin and release it into the synaptic cleft at the appropriate time. SSRI's cause our neurons to reuse serotonin longer than they normally would, which is not how we evolved to use serotonin. The way this felt to me as a human interacting with the world around me was artificial happiness and artificial feelings of ease. I felt "better", but it didn't feel like it was grounded in anything real. I felt happy when happy things happened, but I also felt happy when sad things happened. Eventually it wore off and SSRI's no longer had any effect on me. I eventually tried tryptophan and B vitamins (specifically B6), which our bodies use to synthesize serotonin. I got a similar effect to when I first started SSRI's, but it felt real. I was able to be happy when something happy happened. But when something sad happened I also felt sad. This effect has endured for 4 years now. I have since found that I had a serious problem with a particular toxin which poisons many of the pathways involved with serotonin synthesis (among many many others including one of the most fundamental, the Citrate Cycle). A way around the poisoning is large doses of the appropriate nutrients. This is because the toxicity causes serious inefficiencies in their use by the body's biochemical pathways. This was my personal experience. Depression is caused by many factors and I'm sure what works for me would not work for many. It can be genetic issues, other kinds of toxins, and overwhelming amount of trauma, chronic infections, unhealthy relationships, etc. Or a combination of those.
- pschuegr 6y ago
  Can you post more about the cause? I'm not familiar with this toxicity as a cause of depression. Thanks!
  - wavepruner 6y ago
    Sure. I usually don't bring it up unless asked because it is very controversial. Chronic mercury toxicity was the cause. I've confirmed this diagnosis with dramatic improvement to chelation therapy. I've also done some novel testing that indirectly confirms the diagnosis. It's not something you can test for directly unless you start taking biopsies of tissues you wouldn't want to cut out of someone alive. It resides in "deeper" tissues, not in the blood. The effect of mercury on biochemical pathways has been mapped out quite extensively, and we even know what and why certain genes make some people more susceptible than others. Not something you'll find in mainstream medicine, but the research is extensive and still rapidly growing. Particularly in the toxicology and chemistry circles. I use a newer chelator called emeramide. It's currently in Phase II clinical trials and will probably be approved within 10 years. Although, it can be very dangerous if someone takes a too large of a dose, and the person pushing it through FDA approval does not seem to be fully aware of how bad it can be. Generally, the sicker you are the lower the dose you need to start on. This phenomenon is extensively documented in the Facebook groups where mercury toxic people discuss their experiences and results. Emeramide binds to mercury the strongest, but also chelates other toxic metals like lead and cadmium, so those could certainly be complicating factors. Especially lead, as I grew up in a home and neighborhood with lots of it. As for where the mercury came from, the timeline of my symptoms, animal toxicology studies, and it's removal in 2001, and more, all point towards the vax(inations I received as a child. For example, I had random and inexplicable symptoms as a kid like attacks of projectile vomiting without being sick, and bloody noses that would last for hours.

astrange 6y ago

"Low serotonin" was never the actual medical position on why antidepressants worked, it was marketing. The medical position is "we don't know why they work"; some antidepressants actually lower serotonin (SNRI) and some increase it (SSRI) and they both seem to help. Also, they take weeks to take effect which doesn't make sense for a neurotransmitter effect, since Adderall (which raises dopamine) works instantly for ADHD. I've heard theories that just doing anything to your brain knocks it out of state enough to stop being depressed (eg psychadelics do this), or that antidepressants actually improve your sleep quality and your brain cleans itself up over time.

m00x 6y ago
Where do you see SNRI lowers serotonin? It's a re-uptake inhibitor for both serotonin and norepinephrine which keeps your body from flushing our those chemicals which raises serotonin levels as long as production is stable. High doses of SNRI will contribute to Serotonin syndrome, which makes your argument hard to believe.
- astrange 6y ago
  Oh, I was going from memory, so I guess that part's wrong. But there are effective antidepressants that aren't strongly based on the serotonin effects SSRIs have, like trazodone (weakly increases it) and especially ketamine (doesn't do it, works better than most antidepressants, works near-instantly instead of taking weeks).
  - johnisgood 6y ago
    And I would like to add that ketamine has nothing to do with the monoamine hypothesis, it is an NMDA receptor antagonist. It has nothing to do with serotonin, dopamine, and noradrenalin. See my other comment about the growing interest in the glutamate system instead of serotonin and the like.
- texasbigdata 6y ago
  Can you please explain what seratonin syndrome is, particularly (like the above hypnosis / nlp split) where the edge of medical literature is? Highly interested, however for some reason was previously inclided to believe the phenomenon did not exist, akin to how adrenal fatigue can't be proven.

flaque 6y ago

It’s a bit like saying a software bug is caused by “differing levels of electricity”.