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> Accepting or declining terms certainly is negotiation, even if it seems limited [...] what will get you kicked out is marking yourself available and then decl

> Accepting or declining terms certainly is negotiation, even if it seems limited [...] what will get you kicked out is marking yourself available and then declining rides There is a contradiction here... Keep in mind that Uber have always explicitly stated that they are just a platform to connect drivers with passengers. So the negotiation (even if it is just accepting or declining terms) must happen between the driver and the customer - i.e. every new passenger. Except that, as you point out, Uber punishes drivers who negotiate in this way! The driver isn't even allowed to refuse customers. It's as if you told your agent "ok I'm open to work", they reply "there's a job 150 miles away, you need to be there at 6am every morning", and you weren't allowed to decline! So we started with very little negotiation power (the "contractor" can say yes or no to the terms predefined by the platform), and then saw this reduced even more when the platform prevents "contractors" from negotiating in this way with each customer - clearly they are a contractor no more

emteycz 6y ago
> The driver isn't even allowed to refuse customers. As I said, you are allowed to refuse customers - simply turn off your availability. You are not allowed to decline rides when you've marked yourself available, just as IT contractors aren't allowed to decline jobs after they announce availability. It's not true that platforms must allow direct provider-customer negotiation or it's employment. Be careful with this, because most of B2B world is running on middlemen similar to Uber (just without an app) - you might suddenly make everyone an employee! > "there's a job 150 miles away, you need to be there at 6am every morning", and you weren't allowed to decline! This is totally false in case of Uber. You can be anywhere in a city-wide zone, you're free to turn on your availability at any time you wish, and you can turn it off at any time you wish, and you can stay offline for as long as you wish - all of this is impossible for employees. > clearly they are a contractor no more How so? Are they using their own equipment? Yes. Are they defining their own working hours and place of work? Yes. Are they able to work or not work whenever they choose? Yes. Are they paid per job and not per hour/month/year? Yes. Please tell me, who is a contractor in your world? Seems like absolutely no one would fall into your criteria. Negotiation never was the defining feature of a contractor, only one of many criteria, and many contractors don't have any ability to negotiate at all (due to long term contracts based on e.g. volume)! And still, in case of Uber there is negotiation, you can decline to work if you don't like the terms, unlike employees.
- namdnay 6y ago
  > IT contractors aren't allowed to decline jobs after they announce availability I don't get this - I've done a bit of consulting and it didn't work like you describe. A client reaches out to you (either directly or through an agency), they describe the mission, you say yes or no, negotiate the rate and bingo. Exactly like a plumber. What system are you describing? > who is a contractor in your world? Plumbers, independent building contractors, software contractors, corporate trainers - there are lots of contractors out there. The general rule is that they accept no job security in exchange for higher rates than the equivalent salaried position (e.g. an independent plumber makes 2x what a salaried plumber does, however if they get ill or break a leg they are in trouble..). This for me is the main test that shows Uber isn't contracting - Uber drivers make the same or less than salaried taxi drivers!

emteycz 6y ago

> The driver isn't even allowed to refuse customers. As I said, you are allowed to refuse customers - simply turn off your availability. You are not allowed to decline rides when you've marked yourself available, just as IT contractors aren't allowed to decline jobs after they announce availability. It's not true that platforms must allow direct provider-customer negotiation or it's employment. Be careful with this, because most of B2B world is running on middlemen similar to Uber (just without an app) - you might suddenly make everyone an employee! > "there's a job 150 miles away, you need to be there at 6am every morning", and you weren't allowed to decline! This is totally false in case of Uber. You can be anywhere in a city-wide zone, you're free to turn on your availability at any time you wish, and you can turn it off at any time you wish, and you can stay offline for as long as you wish - all of this is impossible for employees. > clearly they are a contractor no more How so? Are they using their own equipment? Yes. Are they defining their own working hours and place of work? Yes. Are they able to work or not work whenever they choose? Yes. Are they paid per job and not per hour/month/year? Yes. Please tell me, who is a contractor in your world? Seems like absolutely no one would fall into your criteria. Negotiation never was the defining feature of a contractor, only one of many criteria, and many contractors don't have any ability to negotiate at all (due to long term contracts based on e.g. volume)! And still, in case of Uber there is negotiation, you can decline to work if you don't like the terms, unlike employees.

namdnay 6y ago
> IT contractors aren't allowed to decline jobs after they announce availability I don't get this - I've done a bit of consulting and it didn't work like you describe. A client reaches out to you (either directly or through an agency), they describe the mission, you say yes or no, negotiate the rate and bingo. Exactly like a plumber. What system are you describing? > who is a contractor in your world? Plumbers, independent building contractors, software contractors, corporate trainers - there are lots of contractors out there. The general rule is that they accept no job security in exchange for higher rates than the equivalent salaried position (e.g. an independent plumber makes 2x what a salaried plumber does, however if they get ill or break a leg they are in trouble..). This for me is the main test that shows Uber isn't contracting - Uber drivers make the same or less than salaried taxi drivers!