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"the mood is slowly turning into some sort of "Torches and Pitchforks" way..." That mentality can actually be helpful, and provided it stays metaphorical, it i

"the mood is slowly turning into some sort of "Torches and Pitchforks" way..." That mentality can actually be helpful, and provided it stays metaphorical, it is called for. We're coming up on the one year anniversary of authoritarian rules. We accepted them because we were (rightfully) scared. The facts are that it is now getting under control, and it would be healthy and cathartic to assert normalcy again. We're rightful in being optimistic now, and should reclaim our rights and freedom. The craziness comes from trying to contain it.

robotresearcher 6y ago
What do you think happens if we go back to normal behavior before we have a large fraction of people vaccinated?
- Mediterraneo10 6y ago
  The UK roadmap that will be rolled out Monday but was already leaked to the press, calls for social distancing to be maintained for essentially the rest of the year, even after most people are vaccinated. (Restaurants can reopen where you can meet people from another household or two, but no concerts, theatre, clubs, etc.) So, the connection that you mentioned between getting people vaccinated and going back to normal, is no longer what is guiding policymakers in some countries. Seeing that disingenuous planning on the part of state authorities, I would simply prefer to go back to normal behavior right now, allow young people to have their big social coming-of-age and courtship rituals and open the borders so that Europeans aren’t separated from their fellow Europeans, and simply accept all the deaths that would result in the in-between time.
kelnos 6y ago
> We're coming up on the one year anniversary of authoritarian rules. What exactly is "authoritarian" about them? These rules were imposed and enforced[0] under authority granted to the government through democratic processes. And if enough people don't like it, most states have recall/impeachment processes that can allow the citizenry to remove the elected officials and replace them with people who will take a different path. The fact that none of that has happened shows that the people who truly believe the measures taken were incorrect are in the minority, likely a small vocal minority. If you want to talk about authoritarianism, look to actual authoritarian states, where curfews, lockdowns, and quarantines were implemented, along with severe restrictions on people's movement... with no avenue for citizens to oppose these measures (and if they try, they get arrested). That is not at all what has been happening in the US, UK, and similar nations. [0] Also consider that many of the rules imposed on individuals have essentially been voluntary and under the honor system. In most (but not all) places in the US you don't get ticketed or arrested for failing to wear a mask or socially distance, or for violating a quarantine or curfew.
- Mediterraneo10 6y ago
  > These rules were imposed and enforced under authority granted to the government through democratic processes. Not in many countries. Courts have overturned some rules, finding that the government did not have authority to impose those rules. For example, in Poland the ruling party ordered that masks be worn in public spaces and that restaurants have to close, but courts have already found that this law was void because the government did not pass a formal state of emergency (which would have enraged the population and cost them the next election). Similarly, in the Netherlands their curfew was overturned by courts. It was hastily reinstated through parliamentary vote, but this reinstatement is questionable when this curfew appears designed to prevent the ruling coalition’s position from being challenged before the upcoming election. In France, Macron has clearly resorted to harsh anti-COVID measures because they can help stamp out the Yellow Vests movement that was bothering him pre-COVID. Dishonest strategems like this – even if not the most blatant example of an authoritarian state – leave a bad taste in one’s mouth.

robotresearcher 6y ago

What do you think happens if we go back to normal behavior before we have a large fraction of people vaccinated?

Mediterraneo10 6y ago
The UK roadmap that will be rolled out Monday but was already leaked to the press, calls for social distancing to be maintained for essentially the rest of the year, even after most people are vaccinated. (Restaurants can reopen where you can meet people from another household or two, but no concerts, theatre, clubs, etc.) So, the connection that you mentioned between getting people vaccinated and going back to normal, is no longer what is guiding policymakers in some countries. Seeing that disingenuous planning on the part of state authorities, I would simply prefer to go back to normal behavior right now, allow young people to have their big social coming-of-age and courtship rituals and open the borders so that Europeans aren’t separated from their fellow Europeans, and simply accept all the deaths that would result in the in-between time.

kelnos 6y ago

> We're coming up on the one year anniversary of authoritarian rules. What exactly is "authoritarian" about them? These rules were imposed and enforced[0] under authority granted to the government through democratic processes. And if enough people don't like it, most states have recall/impeachment processes that can allow the citizenry to remove the elected officials and replace them with people who will take a different path. The fact that none of that has happened shows that the people who truly believe the measures taken were incorrect are in the minority, likely a small vocal minority. If you want to talk about authoritarianism, look to actual authoritarian states, where curfews, lockdowns, and quarantines were implemented, along with severe restrictions on people's movement... with no avenue for citizens to oppose these measures (and if they try, they get arrested). That is not at all what has been happening in the US, UK, and similar nations. [0] Also consider that many of the rules imposed on individuals have essentially been voluntary and under the honor system. In most (but not all) places in the US you don't get ticketed or arrested for failing to wear a mask or socially distance, or for violating a quarantine or curfew.

Mediterraneo10 6y ago
> These rules were imposed and enforced under authority granted to the government through democratic processes. Not in many countries. Courts have overturned some rules, finding that the government did not have authority to impose those rules. For example, in Poland the ruling party ordered that masks be worn in public spaces and that restaurants have to close, but courts have already found that this law was void because the government did not pass a formal state of emergency (which would have enraged the population and cost them the next election). Similarly, in the Netherlands their curfew was overturned by courts. It was hastily reinstated through parliamentary vote, but this reinstatement is questionable when this curfew appears designed to prevent the ruling coalition’s position from being challenged before the upcoming election. In France, Macron has clearly resorted to harsh anti-COVID measures because they can help stamp out the Yellow Vests movement that was bothering him pre-COVID. Dishonest strategems like this – even if not the most blatant example of an authoritarian state – leave a bad taste in one’s mouth.