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>Facebooks corporate incentive is to get you to FEEL like your getting good value out of advertising on Facebook and to get you addicted to doing it. Even more

>Facebooks corporate incentive is to get you to FEEL like your getting good value out of advertising on Facebook and to get you addicted to doing it. Even more reason for us to be doubtful about FB's claims that small businesses would be decimated without FB's invasive tracking.

cm2012 6y ago
If FB was actually completely forbidden from tracking, I'd estimate 85% of small shopify stores would die with it. The winners would be giant marketplaces like Amazon, who would be the only reliable sources left of customer acquisition.
- dannyr 6y ago
  So how did small businesses survive before Facebook? I'm pretty sure small businesses existed back then. /s
  - cm2012 6y ago
    Reread my comment, I said Shopify stores. Local small businesses have other acquisition methods (walk through traffic, local search, etc.) and don't rely on FB.
    - dillondoyle 6y ago
      HN loves to praise the digitization & automation of other industries. Why is this different? Retail is dying, malls are bankrupt. COVID amplified this change and small business struggles. Even big corps are losing retail to online sales, GME is a meme example lol.
    - reaperducer 6y ago
      Local small businesses have other acquisition methods (walk through traffic, local search, etc.) and don't rely on FB. Facebook disagrees. It's even taken out full-page newspaper ads to tell people that if small businesses don't advertise (and permit invasive tracking) on Facebook, they'll go out of business and take the economy with them.
      - cm2012 6y ago
        Small shopify stores are small businesses. Probably the fastest growing category of small businesses.
      - throwawayboise 6y ago
        > It's even taken out full-page newspaper ads LOL. This is quite a comment on their own opinion of their ad platform's influence.
- iamacyborg 6y ago
  > I'd estimate 85% of small shopify stores would die with it And nothing of value was lost.
  - ahoka 6y ago
    Most of those are probably just drop shipping with no real economical value.
    - iamacyborg 6y ago
      Except for Shopify. I wonder what the ecological impact of all these dropshippers is.
      - rtkwe 6y ago
        Isn't it roughly the same as any other online shopping? The main difference is it's not getting warehoused in the US first but most of the products will flow through the same shipping channels.
        iamacyborg 6y ago
        My assumption is that a traditional approach where a retailer orders thousands of units at once has a lower ecological impact than shipping items out on a purchase-by-purchase basis. I could definitely be wrong though.
        rightbyte 6y ago
        You are probably not wrong. In my experience online retail ofent package stuff in the most ridiculously sized containers too. Trucks driving around with air.
        bluGill 6y ago
        I doubt it. Everyone driving to the local retailer uses a lot of fuel. The truck uses more fuel than any two cars (this varies, but we can assume one is a SUV so close enough) for any distance, but the distance is overall much less because each car is going to the store, while the truck only needs to get from one house to the next, something shipping companies optimize. thus the amount of fuel assigned to any one package is less for the truck.
- andreilys 6y ago
  They aren’t forbidden from tracking. They are being asked to get user consent to track, very different things.
  - cm2012 6y ago
    "If", I am proposing a hypothetical.
- Red_Leaves_Flyy 6y ago
  What's your basis for this thesis? Likewise, how many of those shops are dropshippers that never touch product?
  - jariel 6y ago
    Facebook is one of the only means to do reasonably targeted advertising with a broad reach. Google is keyword only, and that's limited. Banner network display ads are useless. The privacy debate is woefully lopsided by people who have never spent a dime marketing. I suggest all the startupy people on HN spend some time trying to get the word out and then they'll realize what the 'hard part' of the business is because it's not code. Efficient advertising, which is to say getting in front of people who have a legit curiosity for your product with ads that are not distracting, is possible and ideal for everyone, but can only be done with at least some data. The economy would grow literally by 1% more if we could get people connected with the things they need, when they need them and we'd all be better off.
    - Red_Leaves_Flyy 6y ago
      This is an advertisement for advertising...
    - forgingahead 6y ago
      Suprised at the downvotes on your comment, but you're right, Facebook provides an advertising targeting engine that doesn't have a parallel. Whether that's good or bad for is separate from whether it's a useful business tool. @jariel can you share any resource for people looking to understand and dip their feet running their own FB ads?
      - jariel 6y ago
        I would but there's actually quite an enormos amount of information out there already. Also, the pitfalls of FB ads are generally well known as well, we all know their numbers are a little ragged and we all know that 'likes' don't have much value in most scenarios. Frankly, I would encourage anyone to stick $20 into FB ad platform and just run a few ads to drive some traffic to their own pages. It's a powerful and revelatory experience, advertising is a 'dark art' to too many people but it shouldn't be. The moment you are in a position of having to market and sell a product, especially coming from another discipline, your world turns upside down and you see everything differently.
- LexGray 6y ago
  Facebook has users build huge profiles on themselves. Is there really 85% additional value stalking people over what they are already willing sharing?
- cwkoss 6y ago
  What percentage of small shopify stores' whole business is dropshipping cheap Chinese garbage at huge mark ups?
  - pie420 6y ago
    105%
  - notahacker 6y ago
    probably not higher than Amazon marketplace's...
  - bluGill 6y ago
    Less than you might think because of all the small stores where the whole model is to offer something, collect money, and not ship at all. I don't buy from shopify or facebook anymore, and probably won't even if they clean up their act.
    - mtnGoat 6y ago
      This is a real problem! I think Shopify is starting to keep rolling reserves to combat it too. So they are switching to other payment methods.
  - stickfigure 6y ago
    Probably not as large as you think? Print-on-demand is huge, and almost everyone prints domestically.
  - Spivak 6y ago
    That’s the whole business of most stores. Trying to pin that on the web hosting platform seems odd. Being on Shopify is basically zero signal as to whether the product is any good.
    - tomnipotent 6y ago
      > That’s the whole business of most stores Most stores buy and hold inventory, taking on the risk of not selling that inventory. Dropshippers send the order to someone else to fulfil, and are essentially glorified lead generators.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

cm2012 6y ago

If FB was actually completely forbidden from tracking, I'd estimate 85% of small shopify stores would die with it. The winners would be giant marketplaces like Amazon, who would be the only reliable sources left of customer acquisition.

dannyr 6y ago
So how did small businesses survive before Facebook? I'm pretty sure small businesses existed back then. /s
- cm2012 6y ago
  Reread my comment, I said Shopify stores. Local small businesses have other acquisition methods (walk through traffic, local search, etc.) and don't rely on FB.
  - dillondoyle 6y ago
    HN loves to praise the digitization & automation of other industries. Why is this different? Retail is dying, malls are bankrupt. COVID amplified this change and small business struggles. Even big corps are losing retail to online sales, GME is a meme example lol.
  - reaperducer 6y ago
    Local small businesses have other acquisition methods (walk through traffic, local search, etc.) and don't rely on FB. Facebook disagrees. It's even taken out full-page newspaper ads to tell people that if small businesses don't advertise (and permit invasive tracking) on Facebook, they'll go out of business and take the economy with them.
    - cm2012 6y ago
      Small shopify stores are small businesses. Probably the fastest growing category of small businesses.
    - throwawayboise 6y ago
      > It's even taken out full-page newspaper ads LOL. This is quite a comment on their own opinion of their ad platform's influence.
iamacyborg 6y ago
> I'd estimate 85% of small shopify stores would die with it And nothing of value was lost.
- ahoka 6y ago
  Most of those are probably just drop shipping with no real economical value.
  - iamacyborg 6y ago
    Except for Shopify. I wonder what the ecological impact of all these dropshippers is.
    - rtkwe 6y ago
      Isn't it roughly the same as any other online shopping? The main difference is it's not getting warehoused in the US first but most of the products will flow through the same shipping channels.
      - iamacyborg 6y ago
        My assumption is that a traditional approach where a retailer orders thousands of units at once has a lower ecological impact than shipping items out on a purchase-by-purchase basis. I could definitely be wrong though.
        rightbyte 6y ago
        You are probably not wrong. In my experience online retail ofent package stuff in the most ridiculously sized containers too. Trucks driving around with air.
        bluGill 6y ago
        I doubt it. Everyone driving to the local retailer uses a lot of fuel. The truck uses more fuel than any two cars (this varies, but we can assume one is a SUV so close enough) for any distance, but the distance is overall much less because each car is going to the store, while the truck only needs to get from one house to the next, something shipping companies optimize. thus the amount of fuel assigned to any one package is less for the truck.
andreilys 6y ago
They aren’t forbidden from tracking. They are being asked to get user consent to track, very different things.
- cm2012 6y ago
  "If", I am proposing a hypothetical.
Red_Leaves_Flyy 6y ago
What's your basis for this thesis? Likewise, how many of those shops are dropshippers that never touch product?
- jariel 6y ago
  Facebook is one of the only means to do reasonably targeted advertising with a broad reach. Google is keyword only, and that's limited. Banner network display ads are useless. The privacy debate is woefully lopsided by people who have never spent a dime marketing. I suggest all the startupy people on HN spend some time trying to get the word out and then they'll realize what the 'hard part' of the business is because it's not code. Efficient advertising, which is to say getting in front of people who have a legit curiosity for your product with ads that are not distracting, is possible and ideal for everyone, but can only be done with at least some data. The economy would grow literally by 1% more if we could get people connected with the things they need, when they need them and we'd all be better off.
  - Red_Leaves_Flyy 6y ago
    This is an advertisement for advertising...
  - forgingahead 6y ago
    Suprised at the downvotes on your comment, but you're right, Facebook provides an advertising targeting engine that doesn't have a parallel. Whether that's good or bad for is separate from whether it's a useful business tool. @jariel can you share any resource for people looking to understand and dip their feet running their own FB ads?
    - jariel 6y ago
      I would but there's actually quite an enormos amount of information out there already. Also, the pitfalls of FB ads are generally well known as well, we all know their numbers are a little ragged and we all know that 'likes' don't have much value in most scenarios. Frankly, I would encourage anyone to stick $20 into FB ad platform and just run a few ads to drive some traffic to their own pages. It's a powerful and revelatory experience, advertising is a 'dark art' to too many people but it shouldn't be. The moment you are in a position of having to market and sell a product, especially coming from another discipline, your world turns upside down and you see everything differently.
LexGray 6y ago
Facebook has users build huge profiles on themselves. Is there really 85% additional value stalking people over what they are already willing sharing?
cwkoss 6y ago
What percentage of small shopify stores' whole business is dropshipping cheap Chinese garbage at huge mark ups?
- pie420 6y ago
  105%
- notahacker 6y ago
  probably not higher than Amazon marketplace's...
- bluGill 6y ago
  Less than you might think because of all the small stores where the whole model is to offer something, collect money, and not ship at all. I don't buy from shopify or facebook anymore, and probably won't even if they clean up their act.
  - mtnGoat 6y ago
    This is a real problem! I think Shopify is starting to keep rolling reserves to combat it too. So they are switching to other payment methods.
- stickfigure 6y ago
  Probably not as large as you think? Print-on-demand is huge, and almost everyone prints domestically.
- Spivak 6y ago
  That’s the whole business of most stores. Trying to pin that on the web hosting platform seems odd. Being on Shopify is basically zero signal as to whether the product is any good.
  - tomnipotent 6y ago
    > That’s the whole business of most stores Most stores buy and hold inventory, taking on the risk of not selling that inventory. Dropshippers send the order to someone else to fulfil, and are essentially glorified lead generators.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]