6 ms·

A group of my friends asked to set up a groupchat recently, our requirements varied. Among them: - needs to be simple (not all of them are techies) - need to

by pmlnr 6y ago

A group of my friends asked to set up a groupchat recently, our requirements varied. Among them: - needs to be simple (not all of them are techies) - need to be possible to run on desktop without any mobile need - not Facebook (my requirement) So I went and set an XMPP server up on the same machine I have my email and webserver, and wrote a quick guide on how to install blabber.im (a Conversations fork), and register on the server. With a turnserver running in the background, it can do voice/video calls as well. The room is not e2e encrypted yet - that is because I wasn't able to get the desktop person to install the omemo plugin for gajim, but that is the sole reason. We'll get there. There is no history delivered on first connect - e2e encryption would prevent that anyway, similarly to Signal or Whatsapp. PS: "Why not matrix?" Because at the moment, I despise the matrix clients, all the ones I tried, and the purple-matrix plugin for pidgin/adium/etc is long abandoned, and has no encryption support. -- EDIT OK, for those who don't understand what I wrote: I spun my OWN XMPP server. You don't have to, you can use any XMPP/Jabber server, for example any here: https://list.jabber.at/ https://list.jabber.at/ From a user perspective: get and app, register a user/password on the selected server, done. That is simple. -- EDIT2 > There is no history delivered on first connect This is a choice. The tech/option exists: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0313.html https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0313.html

iagovar 6y ago
That's not my idea of simple. Telegram works for me.
- vinay427 6y ago
  Telegram has an incredibly primitive setup for their private conversations (E2E encryption). It doesn't work at all on desktop clients, and there's no supported way to backup or transfer devices so changing or losing a phone means you lose the conversation history with no option to backup, even preemptively.
sprkwd 6y ago
That doesn't feel simple. I installed Signal.
- pmlnr 6y ago
  > That doesn't feel simple. What doesn't feel simple from the user perspective? Get https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=im.blabber.messenger https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=im.blabber.mes... , start it, follow the screen. Or https://gajim.org/download/ https://gajim.org/download/ for desktop, register on first run. Or https://siskin.im/ https://siskin.im/ for iOS, register on first run. If that's not simple enough, we need to nuke the whole smartphone scene. + the steps above were _my_ steps, the steps of an XMPP server provider, not the steps of a user.
  - btmiller 6y ago
    I’m not sure which reality you live in where begging an individual on desktop to install more things is simple.
    - pmlnr 6y ago
      ??? Because asking them to install another app on the phone is? Seriously, what's the difference?
- justusthane 6y ago
  Yes, Signal is good, but the parent said that one of their criteria was "need to be possible to run on desktop without any mobile need". Signal doesn't meet that.
  - vinay427 6y ago
    Signal's desktop client, unlike WhatsApp and Telegram, at least supports E2E encrypted conversations while a phone is disconnected or off. You only need access to a phone when it falls out of sync which is increasingly rare. That's a huge plus in my book, and after drastic improvements over the last few years the desktop client now seems rather stable in my experience.
- TheJoYo 6y ago
  Signal is the bare minimum and can run along side Element and ActivityPub just fine. If you want to avoid Google Play-Services then Element and ActivityPub are much easier to use.
secfirstmd 6y ago
Life probably would have been much easier for you if you had just used a Matrix server.
- pmlnr 6y ago
  LOL, no. I've been trying to run my Matrix server for a while without serious hiccups, with audio/video support, federation, irc appservice, and it's a clusterf*ck. Plus if you cared to read the whole entry, I have the reason there why not matrix.
  - kitkat_new 6y ago
    what exactly should we read?
przmk 6y ago
There is history delivery on first connect on Matrix whenever I set-up a new device. I don't think XMPP has any future. It's a hassle to set-up and I have yet to see a really modern looking client. Blabber does not fit that at all.
- pmlnr 6y ago
  > There is history delivery on first connect on Matrix whenever I set-up a new device. Not for encrypted rooms. -- EDIT: XMPP has https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0313.html https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0313.html which can deliver history for the clients that support it. I just haven't set it up.
  - Arathorn 6y ago
    Encrypted history should appear fine on Matrix when you log in on a new device - either by gossiping from an old device, or restoring from encrypted key backup if you created one.
    - pmlnr 6y ago
      "On first log in" means you've never been in the room before with any device.
      - feanaro 6y ago
        It really doesn't, we shouldn't be redefining words. I suspect you actually mean sharing of historical room keys with new room members.
Boulth6 6y ago
You may want to check out Dino.im. For easy XMPP there is also Quicksy.im that's a fork of Conversations (from the author of Conversations) but using contact book for people discovery.
- pmlnr 6y ago
  I tried Dino, Gajim, Psi, Psi+, Empathy, but I still prefer the UI/UX of Pidgin. It knows all I need at the moment, with the exception of Transport commands.
CA0DA 6y ago
why did you not go with a self hosted matrix (aka element.io)?
- pmlnr 6y ago
  Read the whole entry, please?
kitkat_new 6y ago
Then you should try a different ones maybe - it'll be an upgrade for sure
pkulak 6y ago
Interesting. I've found Element to be seriously polished, nice looking, and a joy to use across web, Mac, Linux, iOS and Android.
oever 6y ago
Could you share your XMPP setup? What server? What clients for the various operating systems and what setting?
- pmlnr 6y ago
  I just went for prosody, though after a few months ejabberd looks nice as well, with built-in turnserver and irc transport. In Prosody, those are external, coturn and biboumi.
  - MattJ100 6y ago
    Yeah, built-in TURN/etc. in Prosody is unlikely to happen. We believe in modularity, smaller footprint, separation of concerns and the "do one thing" philosophy. Coturn is a decent battle-tested TURN server and works just fine :) Rather than trying to reimplement stuff that other projects have done quite nicely, we're focusing on trying to grow the community, network and ecosystem with projects like easy onboarding[1] and Snikket[2]. [1]: https://blog.prosody.im/great-invitations/ https://blog.prosody.im/great-invitations/ [2]: https://snikket.org/ https://snikket.org/
    - pmlnr 6y ago
      I like the modularity of prosody; the choice is similar to postfix vs exim. I merely wanted to point it out that ejabberd is a more full fledged solution out of the box.
      - Zash 6y ago
        This is indeed something of an issue, the duality of Prosody. Should it be a complete solution or a platform for you to build on? Being one when people expect the other leads to disappointed users, and being both is a lot of work for the small dev team. Hopefully Snikket will improve this by attracting those who want the complete solution.

by pmlnr 6y ago

iagovar 6y ago

That's not my idea of simple. Telegram works for me.

vinay427 6y ago
Telegram has an incredibly primitive setup for their private conversations (E2E encryption). It doesn't work at all on desktop clients, and there's no supported way to backup or transfer devices so changing or losing a phone means you lose the conversation history with no option to backup, even preemptively.

sprkwd 6y ago

That doesn't feel simple. I installed Signal.

pmlnr 6y ago
> That doesn't feel simple. What doesn't feel simple from the user perspective? Get https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=im.blabber.messenger https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=im.blabber.mes... , start it, follow the screen. Or https://gajim.org/download/ https://gajim.org/download/ for desktop, register on first run. Or https://siskin.im/ https://siskin.im/ for iOS, register on first run. If that's not simple enough, we need to nuke the whole smartphone scene. + the steps above were _my_ steps, the steps of an XMPP server provider, not the steps of a user.
- btmiller 6y ago
  I’m not sure which reality you live in where begging an individual on desktop to install more things is simple.
  - pmlnr 6y ago
    ??? Because asking them to install another app on the phone is? Seriously, what's the difference?
justusthane 6y ago
Yes, Signal is good, but the parent said that one of their criteria was "need to be possible to run on desktop without any mobile need". Signal doesn't meet that.
- vinay427 6y ago
  Signal's desktop client, unlike WhatsApp and Telegram, at least supports E2E encrypted conversations while a phone is disconnected or off. You only need access to a phone when it falls out of sync which is increasingly rare. That's a huge plus in my book, and after drastic improvements over the last few years the desktop client now seems rather stable in my experience.
TheJoYo 6y ago
Signal is the bare minimum and can run along side Element and ActivityPub just fine. If you want to avoid Google Play-Services then Element and ActivityPub are much easier to use.

secfirstmd 6y ago

Life probably would have been much easier for you if you had just used a Matrix server.

pmlnr 6y ago
LOL, no. I've been trying to run my Matrix server for a while without serious hiccups, with audio/video support, federation, irc appservice, and it's a clusterf*ck. Plus if you cared to read the whole entry, I have the reason there why not matrix.
- kitkat_new 6y ago
  what exactly should we read?

przmk 6y ago

There is history delivery on first connect on Matrix whenever I set-up a new device. I don't think XMPP has any future. It's a hassle to set-up and I have yet to see a really modern looking client. Blabber does not fit that at all.

pmlnr 6y ago
> There is history delivery on first connect on Matrix whenever I set-up a new device. Not for encrypted rooms. -- EDIT: XMPP has https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0313.html https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0313.html which can deliver history for the clients that support it. I just haven't set it up.
- Arathorn 6y ago
  Encrypted history should appear fine on Matrix when you log in on a new device - either by gossiping from an old device, or restoring from encrypted key backup if you created one.
  - pmlnr 6y ago
    "On first log in" means you've never been in the room before with any device.
    - feanaro 6y ago
      It really doesn't, we shouldn't be redefining words. I suspect you actually mean sharing of historical room keys with new room members.

Boulth6 6y ago

You may want to check out Dino.im. For easy XMPP there is also Quicksy.im that's a fork of Conversations (from the author of Conversations) but using contact book for people discovery.

pmlnr 6y ago
I tried Dino, Gajim, Psi, Psi+, Empathy, but I still prefer the UI/UX of Pidgin. It knows all I need at the moment, with the exception of Transport commands.

CA0DA 6y ago

why did you not go with a self hosted matrix (aka element.io)?

pmlnr 6y ago
Read the whole entry, please?

kitkat_new 6y ago

Then you should try a different ones maybe - it'll be an upgrade for sure

pkulak 6y ago

Interesting. I've found Element to be seriously polished, nice looking, and a joy to use across web, Mac, Linux, iOS and Android.

oever 6y ago

Could you share your XMPP setup? What server? What clients for the various operating systems and what setting?

pmlnr 6y ago
I just went for prosody, though after a few months ejabberd looks nice as well, with built-in turnserver and irc transport. In Prosody, those are external, coturn and biboumi.
- MattJ100 6y ago
  Yeah, built-in TURN/etc. in Prosody is unlikely to happen. We believe in modularity, smaller footprint, separation of concerns and the "do one thing" philosophy. Coturn is a decent battle-tested TURN server and works just fine :) Rather than trying to reimplement stuff that other projects have done quite nicely, we're focusing on trying to grow the community, network and ecosystem with projects like easy onboarding[1] and Snikket[2]. [1]: https://blog.prosody.im/great-invitations/ https://blog.prosody.im/great-invitations/ [2]: https://snikket.org/ https://snikket.org/
  - pmlnr 6y ago
    I like the modularity of prosody; the choice is similar to postfix vs exim. I merely wanted to point it out that ejabberd is a more full fledged solution out of the box.
    - Zash 6y ago
      This is indeed something of an issue, the duality of Prosody. Should it be a complete solution or a platform for you to build on? Being one when people expect the other leads to disappointed users, and being both is a lot of work for the small dev team. Hopefully Snikket will improve this by attracting those who want the complete solution.