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This seems like cheap advice that's trying to get me to buy into a lifestyle in order to sell me things. "Have less exposure towards super fun things". "Get bo

This seems like cheap advice that's trying to get me to buy into a lifestyle in order to sell me things. "Have less exposure towards super fun things". "Get bored". These describe the same general concept as dopamine fasting. The third bullet point can be reduced to "focus on what you have to do, until you can focus on it" which is circular. I'm not buying in. Maybe I'm getting old but "failure to start" is starting to sound like a meme to me perpetuated by vultures trying to exploit creative personalities, hackers included. I think what we need to do, is to step back and appreciate ourselves for the effort we continually expect from ourselves. As hackers in one way or another, we are constantly putting up our ego as collateral in order to take on challenges that threaten to knock us down a peg or two if we fail. For many of us, failure is a threat to the core of our identity, yet we dive on in anyway. Exhaustion from that sort of loop is to be expected. Most people don't live like this. Most people reduce the flux in their lives instead of seeking to increase it. Why? Because most people cherish their egos to the point where they cannot commit to a goal with an uncertain outcome. They would rather work a 9-5, which is fine, but it doesn't describe our community. We are addicted to risk if it means building something new and that we can call our own. So appreciate yourselves more. And get better sleep.

vitabenes 6y ago
I agree with your points on appreciating yourself and better sleep. As for this seeming like cheap advice, keep in mind that A) many people have not heard it yet, and B) sometimes a new twist on an older concept drives the point home. And you don't have to buy anything. Most of the stuff we create is free on our blog or Twitter. We're not "vultures," we're 2 guys helping people to stop scrolling and go do stuff, driven by our own past struggles. Fin. Thank you for the comment.
- SyzygistSix 6y ago
  The article was what I needed to read, when I needed to read it, as it is something I am actively struggling with. And some of the advice, while I have heard it before, was framed differently enough that it allowed me to "get it" this time around. Thanks!
  - vitabenes 6y ago
    Happy to help!
    - fuzzfactor 6y ago
      I'm glad you're here, but OTOH I say it can be good to accelerate at your leisure.
- virgil_disgr4ce 6y ago
  Where do you think depression fits into this model? I have depression and take antidepressants, but I still experience an undercurrent of inescapable ennui that appears to be resistant to even the most interesting, well-defined and meaningful work.
  - Bakary 6y ago
    YMMV but it's generally possible to improve that sensation over time by conscious appreciation and a return to less information-intensive activities. Generally philosophical visions of the world are a product of emotions and neurological and physical conditions that are sometimes as mundane as bad digestion.
  - dundercoder 6y ago
    ennui ennui /ɒnˈwiː / ▸ noun [mass noun] a feeling of listlessness and dissatisfaction arising from a lack of occupation or excitement: he succumbed to ennui and despair. – ORIGIN mid 18th century: French , from Latin in odio(n-), from mihi in odio est ‘it is hateful to me’. Compare with annoy.
  - vitabenes 6y ago
    I don't have any world-changing advice on that front, other than having compassion for yourself. We have an article that might have a useful tidbit or two for you: https://www.deprocrastination.co/blog/stages-of-self-development https://www.deprocrastination.co/blog/stages-of-self-develop...
    - k_sze 6y ago
      Speaking of compassion for yourself, I also often feel lonely and depressed. Somebody once suggested that I read "Radical Acceptance", a book by Tara Brach. I've only managed to read part of it before putting it down. I couldn't really agree with some of the arguments in the book (e.g. people in the West having more self-acceptance problems due to biblical story of the original sin). YMMV.
  - justcame2say 6y ago
    IMO depression is something that only resolves with endurance and time. Luckily there will be people in your life that will find you or that you may find by chance that will help you with this. All this happens on its own time though, it sounds a bit religious but one needs to have faith. I am not a doctor but I wouldn't recommend anti depressants to anyone really as it numbs you and takes away your ability to think which means that it doesn't really solve depression. On the other hand if you're going to kill yourself then anti depressants may help you but always bear in mind that they should be temporary and that you should try and get off them if you can.
adtac 6y ago
re sleep: is it common for sleep schedules to "drift"? I'll sleep at 11pm on one night naturally and wake up refreshed at 7am in the morning the next day, but I won't naturally go to sleep until 12am that night. This leads to a 8am wake up time the next day. You can see how this will quickly lead to an bad sleeping pattern. is it possible to fix this with a few weeks of consistently sleeping at the same time somehow? will I eventually sleep at the same time naturally? or will this take months of "forcing" myself to sleep (as ridiculous as that sounds)?
- sixhobbits 6y ago
  See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_sleep_phase_disorder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_sleep_phase_disorder
  - adtac 6y ago
    Okay, that Wikipedia page reads like a personal biography lol. I probably have this in some mild form. The drift is usually about 20-30 mins for me (I used an hour as an example in my original comment), so it's mostly manageable by shortening my duration of sleep by an hour once or twice a week, but I should get this fixed.
- zeta0134 6y ago
  If you solve this problem, would you share the details? I've been dealing with this for my entire adult life. When I can convince my body to actually sleep when the sun goes down, the day that follows is typically one of my most productive, but I also only seem to get one of those per week or so. I can work around this by moderating the length of my sleep, ie, allowing myself to go for at least 7.5 hours no matter when I fall, but sometimes IRL obligations get in the way. For most folks working more strict office hours (or god, retail) this is not a workable suggestion. Even then, eventually I'll drift too far, one of the sleep cycles gets shorted, then there's this weird recovery period with some short naps, and surprise now we're waking up at dawn again.
  - thisiszilff 6y ago
5600k 6y ago
I don’t think it’s cheap advice. He may have spent a lot of time writing it. The only thing I read that was humorous and slightly wrong was the interesting take on meditation: getting bored more often. I enjoy quiet, so I’d be a “zen master” according to the post, at least for some minutes each day. But those who know me would not confuse me with a zen master.
- rchaud 6y ago
  The advice may sound formulaic, but that's because there are only so many ways you can talk about productivity and procrastination. The fundamental issues being addressed are always the same: distractions, instant gratification, poor discipline, lack of measurable goals etc.
yetihehe 6y ago
Not everyone procrastinates for the same reasons. I wish I could do more, but after reading that article I'm fairly sure I'm just exhausted, not procrastinating.
mrfredward 6y ago
>This seems like cheap advice that's trying to get me to buy into a lifestyle in order to sell me things. Funny but I thought the exact opposite. People believe something much more easily when they want it to be true, so the typical sales approach is to tell people what they want to hear. Ridding your life of whatever seems most fun doesn't seem like cheap advice in that regard. On the other hand, I think you're spot on with creative types too often getting exploited, and the involvement of ego being such a key factor in why/how we hackers get burned out.
- zwkrt 6y ago
  There’s a second Christian-esque type of self help which states, “you are a broken and pitiful person, your fundamental nature is flawed. Take these steps to salvation.” Jordan Peterson is like this with all his requests to empathize with gulag prison guards and the like. I think people don’t just like hearing what is good or easy. Sometimes we want to have an incredible cross to bear. It’s the mentality that causes people to commit to overbearing self-regulation, like using pomodoro for the entire day or going on an impossible diet. Self-transformation sells just as much from the mouth of the stern father as it does from the caring mother.
  - mckirk 6y ago
    Hmm, I don't quite agree with that characterization of Jordan Peterson. I believe his main point when talking of these prison-guard horror stories is to "embrace your shadow", as in: Realize that you might not be as far away from being dangerous as you would think, if you just thought of yourself as a good person. Considering the numerous crimes against humanity that have been carried out by people as soon as the "veil of civilization" showed a few cracks in the past, I don't think it's an unreasonable aspect of human nature to remind people of. I believe the concept of the shadow stems from Jung's work, and I admittedly don't know precisely in which context Jung applied it. But ostensibly, being mindful of the dangerous paths one can be lead down if you don't take care to stay in balance seems like a reasonable thing to teach people, without it instantly degenerating into a "you are a sinner and need to atone"-routine (as you seem to see it).
kiba 6y ago
Failure? I think failure is the inability to do what we wanted to do in the first place. A lot of failure is from the inability to finish a project due to lack of motivations, not because it's impossible. Many of these goals are quite beneficial, like working out everyday.
Bakary 6y ago
From your own description, it sounds as though the self-perception as a creative and continual risk-taker different from the nine to fivers is where the ego maintenance lies, so it might not actually be put in danger by failure.
keyanp 6y ago
> As hackers in one way or another, we are constantly putting up our ego as collateral in order to take on challenges that threaten to knock us down a peg or two if we fail. For many of us, failure is a threat to the core of our identity, yet we dive on in anyway. Exhaustion from that sort of loop is to be expected. I've never really heard this feeling described this way, but it totally resonates with me. What a beautiful way to put it. Thanks.
justcame2say 6y ago
I agree 100%. I didn't read your comment before I wrote mine because I had this page open for a few days and for some reason just wanted to post, but it's nice to see!! I agree especially with the last point and the mention of the ego.

vitabenes 6y ago

I agree with your points on appreciating yourself and better sleep. As for this seeming like cheap advice, keep in mind that A) many people have not heard it yet, and B) sometimes a new twist on an older concept drives the point home. And you don't have to buy anything. Most of the stuff we create is free on our blog or Twitter. We're not "vultures," we're 2 guys helping people to stop scrolling and go do stuff, driven by our own past struggles. Fin. Thank you for the comment.

SyzygistSix 6y ago
The article was what I needed to read, when I needed to read it, as it is something I am actively struggling with. And some of the advice, while I have heard it before, was framed differently enough that it allowed me to "get it" this time around. Thanks!
- vitabenes 6y ago
  Happy to help!
  - fuzzfactor 6y ago
    I'm glad you're here, but OTOH I say it can be good to accelerate at your leisure.
virgil_disgr4ce 6y ago
Where do you think depression fits into this model? I have depression and take antidepressants, but I still experience an undercurrent of inescapable ennui that appears to be resistant to even the most interesting, well-defined and meaningful work.
- Bakary 6y ago
  YMMV but it's generally possible to improve that sensation over time by conscious appreciation and a return to less information-intensive activities. Generally philosophical visions of the world are a product of emotions and neurological and physical conditions that are sometimes as mundane as bad digestion.
- dundercoder 6y ago
  ennui ennui /ɒnˈwiː / ▸ noun [mass noun] a feeling of listlessness and dissatisfaction arising from a lack of occupation or excitement: he succumbed to ennui and despair. – ORIGIN mid 18th century: French , from Latin in odio(n-), from mihi in odio est ‘it is hateful to me’. Compare with annoy.
- vitabenes 6y ago
  I don't have any world-changing advice on that front, other than having compassion for yourself. We have an article that might have a useful tidbit or two for you: https://www.deprocrastination.co/blog/stages-of-self-development https://www.deprocrastination.co/blog/stages-of-self-develop...
  - k_sze 6y ago
    Speaking of compassion for yourself, I also often feel lonely and depressed. Somebody once suggested that I read "Radical Acceptance", a book by Tara Brach. I've only managed to read part of it before putting it down. I couldn't really agree with some of the arguments in the book (e.g. people in the West having more self-acceptance problems due to biblical story of the original sin). YMMV.
- justcame2say 6y ago
  IMO depression is something that only resolves with endurance and time. Luckily there will be people in your life that will find you or that you may find by chance that will help you with this. All this happens on its own time though, it sounds a bit religious but one needs to have faith. I am not a doctor but I wouldn't recommend anti depressants to anyone really as it numbs you and takes away your ability to think which means that it doesn't really solve depression. On the other hand if you're going to kill yourself then anti depressants may help you but always bear in mind that they should be temporary and that you should try and get off them if you can.

adtac 6y ago

re sleep: is it common for sleep schedules to "drift"? I'll sleep at 11pm on one night naturally and wake up refreshed at 7am in the morning the next day, but I won't naturally go to sleep until 12am that night. This leads to a 8am wake up time the next day. You can see how this will quickly lead to an bad sleeping pattern. is it possible to fix this with a few weeks of consistently sleeping at the same time somehow? will I eventually sleep at the same time naturally? or will this take months of "forcing" myself to sleep (as ridiculous as that sounds)?

sixhobbits 6y ago
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_sleep_phase_disorder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_sleep_phase_disorder
- adtac 6y ago
  Okay, that Wikipedia page reads like a personal biography lol. I probably have this in some mild form. The drift is usually about 20-30 mins for me (I used an hour as an example in my original comment), so it's mostly manageable by shortening my duration of sleep by an hour once or twice a week, but I should get this fixed.
zeta0134 6y ago
If you solve this problem, would you share the details? I've been dealing with this for my entire adult life. When I can convince my body to actually sleep when the sun goes down, the day that follows is typically one of my most productive, but I also only seem to get one of those per week or so. I can work around this by moderating the length of my sleep, ie, allowing myself to go for at least 7.5 hours no matter when I fall, but sometimes IRL obligations get in the way. For most folks working more strict office hours (or god, retail) this is not a workable suggestion. Even then, eventually I'll drift too far, one of the sleep cycles gets shorted, then there's this weird recovery period with some short naps, and surprise now we're waking up at dawn again.
- thisiszilff 6y ago

5600k 6y ago

I don’t think it’s cheap advice. He may have spent a lot of time writing it. The only thing I read that was humorous and slightly wrong was the interesting take on meditation: getting bored more often. I enjoy quiet, so I’d be a “zen master” according to the post, at least for some minutes each day. But those who know me would not confuse me with a zen master.

rchaud 6y ago
The advice may sound formulaic, but that's because there are only so many ways you can talk about productivity and procrastination. The fundamental issues being addressed are always the same: distractions, instant gratification, poor discipline, lack of measurable goals etc.

yetihehe 6y ago

Not everyone procrastinates for the same reasons. I wish I could do more, but after reading that article I'm fairly sure I'm just exhausted, not procrastinating.

mrfredward 6y ago

>This seems like cheap advice that's trying to get me to buy into a lifestyle in order to sell me things. Funny but I thought the exact opposite. People believe something much more easily when they want it to be true, so the typical sales approach is to tell people what they want to hear. Ridding your life of whatever seems most fun doesn't seem like cheap advice in that regard. On the other hand, I think you're spot on with creative types too often getting exploited, and the involvement of ego being such a key factor in why/how we hackers get burned out.

zwkrt 6y ago
There’s a second Christian-esque type of self help which states, “you are a broken and pitiful person, your fundamental nature is flawed. Take these steps to salvation.” Jordan Peterson is like this with all his requests to empathize with gulag prison guards and the like. I think people don’t just like hearing what is good or easy. Sometimes we want to have an incredible cross to bear. It’s the mentality that causes people to commit to overbearing self-regulation, like using pomodoro for the entire day or going on an impossible diet. Self-transformation sells just as much from the mouth of the stern father as it does from the caring mother.
- mckirk 6y ago
  Hmm, I don't quite agree with that characterization of Jordan Peterson. I believe his main point when talking of these prison-guard horror stories is to "embrace your shadow", as in: Realize that you might not be as far away from being dangerous as you would think, if you just thought of yourself as a good person. Considering the numerous crimes against humanity that have been carried out by people as soon as the "veil of civilization" showed a few cracks in the past, I don't think it's an unreasonable aspect of human nature to remind people of. I believe the concept of the shadow stems from Jung's work, and I admittedly don't know precisely in which context Jung applied it. But ostensibly, being mindful of the dangerous paths one can be lead down if you don't take care to stay in balance seems like a reasonable thing to teach people, without it instantly degenerating into a "you are a sinner and need to atone"-routine (as you seem to see it).

kiba 6y ago

Failure? I think failure is the inability to do what we wanted to do in the first place. A lot of failure is from the inability to finish a project due to lack of motivations, not because it's impossible. Many of these goals are quite beneficial, like working out everyday.

Bakary 6y ago

From your own description, it sounds as though the self-perception as a creative and continual risk-taker different from the nine to fivers is where the ego maintenance lies, so it might not actually be put in danger by failure.

keyanp 6y ago

> As hackers in one way or another, we are constantly putting up our ego as collateral in order to take on challenges that threaten to knock us down a peg or two if we fail. For many of us, failure is a threat to the core of our identity, yet we dive on in anyway. Exhaustion from that sort of loop is to be expected. I've never really heard this feeling described this way, but it totally resonates with me. What a beautiful way to put it. Thanks.

justcame2say 6y ago

I agree 100%. I didn't read your comment before I wrote mine because I had this page open for a few days and for some reason just wanted to post, but it's nice to see!! I agree especially with the last point and the mention of the ego.