5 ms·

If you truly are a contractor you have the opportunity to negotiate over your hourly rate and terms of works.

emteycz 6y ago
No, very often it's a yes/no and there are many people in the line behind you who will take the job.
fallingknife 6y ago
I did have that opportunity, as does an Uber driver. But, as is the case in any negotiation, the counterparty has the right to hold firm on the price.
- namdnay 6y ago
  An Uber driver has no opportunity to negotiate the rate with the customer. If in the app you said "I want to go to the airport" and then each driver interested replied with a quote, that would be rate negotiation.
  - emteycz 6y ago
    You're negotiating with Uber, not with customers. Uber says take it or leave it, and you can work with another company if it has better terms/rate.
    - vidarh 6y ago
      Uber pretends you're working for the customer, not them. That is a key element in their attempt to pretend they're not an employer.
      - emteycz 6y ago
        Negotiating with Uber, not working for Uber. Uber is a middleman/platform connecting customers with providers, guaranteeing terms of contract to both parties. It works just the same with most IT contracting firms (and the same is true in other sectors too - construction, medical, etc).
        vidarh 6y ago
        A lot of IT contracting firms in the UK have in recent years had to drastically change their practices exactly because ensuring a contract does not create a relationship that would be deemed to be an employment relationship has gotten progressively harder, exactly because it was being massively abused, so this is a very poor argument in the UK. The lack of ability to negotiate prices - be it with a middleman or the actual customer - is one of several tests to that points strongly towards an employee relationship, whether you're a driver or an IT contractor. I'll note that I see you say elsewhere you're an IT contractor. If you're an IT contractor in the UK, I presume you've had to answer questions about IR35. If you haven't, then you really should have a discussion about IR35 with your accountant, because get that wrong and you risk facing a massive tax bill.
        emteycz 6y ago
        I don't understand what do you mean. Does the middleman have to accept whatever I say, or how does this negotiation work? Either we agree, or we don't, I don't see any difference between my IT contracting negotiation and using Uber. One would say that employment is hourly/daily/monthly/yearly based payment - so IT contracting would fall into that, but I don't see how Uber's per-ride rating would fit there. That the price is set by the middleman doesn't mean there isn't negotiation - the contractor can simply disagree, as opposed to an employee who has to do the assigned work and isn't paid based on its completion. I'm an IT contractor in the UK, but not an UK resident nor citizen; my accountant said IR35 doesn't apply to me then.
        vidarh 6y ago
        There needs to be an actual ability to negotiate. If they say no, so be it, but Uber does not provide a mechanism for drivers to give a counter-offer, so there is no negotiation. For your comparison to contracting, I've contracted quite a lot, and I have always had the ability to state my rate, and the client have had the ability to state theirs, and we arrive at something that may be mine, or theirs or something in between, but there has always been actual discussion. With Uber you're presented with a price, and you take it or leave it, and if you leave it Uber never comes back with a higher price - on the contrary, if you keep leaving it they may penalise you. That alone would not necessarily have caused it to be deemed employment, but combined with the other element that all points to drivers having very little control demonstrates that this is not a contract entered into by equals, but one were drivers are subservient, and that points very strongly to an employee relationship under UK law. That there may be similar elements in your IT contracting does not mean Uber drivers are not employees, but that you might be. E.g. when I did contracting: * I always negotiated a rate, whether or not there was a middleman in the process. * There was always a defined end to the contract (but it could be extended) * I had marketing costs. * I paid for my own equipment, and the costs were amortised over my contracts. * I had more than one client at a time a lot of the time, but certainly more than one per year. * I decided when I worked, and how to do the work, and where to work and it was not ordinarily in their offices. Each one of those pointed towards me being a genuine contractor outside of IR35. Each one of them going the other way would not individually mean I was suddenly inside IR35 or in a deemed employment, but each additional one would increase the likelihood the relationship is an employment relationship. EDIT: To make it clear, IR35 is the tax treatment only, but it's often a useful proxy to indicate whether or not you have a claim to be an employee, because the tests that indicate if you're within IR35 are much the same things a court or tribunal would consider if you were to ask them to rule on whether or not you're an employee. EDIT2: Also, if you're a contractor in the UK but not resident that points to a short term contract. That does suggest you'd not be considered an employee, certainly.
    - baq 6y ago
      only being able to accept or refuse is hardly negotiation - and if you refuse enough times, they kick you, so you can't really refuse.
      - emteycz 6y ago
        Consider that employee can't negotiate at all - you do what your boss tells you or you are fired, even in Europe - not performing assigned work is specifically written in the law as fireable offense. Accepting or declining terms certainly is negotiation, even if it seems limited. It's not true that you can't refuse to ride! I have driven many Uber rides as driver (and about 100x more as a passenger) - what will get you kicked out is marking yourself available and then declining rides - because it makes the customer experience much worse. You know the minimal rate per mile beforehand and it can only get better for you, never worse. You're free to turn it off at any time and for as long as you wish and you won't be kicked out - that's absolutely impossible for employees. The IT contracting firm I work with would kick me out the first time I said I am available and then declined.
        namdnay 6y ago
        > Accepting or declining terms certainly is negotiation, even if it seems limited [...] what will get you kicked out is marking yourself available and then declining rides There is a contradiction here... Keep in mind that Uber have always explicitly stated that they are just a platform to connect drivers with passengers. So the negotiation (even if it is just accepting or declining terms) must happen between the driver and the customer - i.e. every new passenger. Except that, as you point out, Uber punishes drivers who negotiate in this way! The driver isn't even allowed to refuse customers. It's as if you told your agent "ok I'm open to work", they reply "there's a job 150 miles away, you need to be there at 6am every morning", and you weren't allowed to decline! So we started with very little negotiation power (the "contractor" can say yes or no to the terms predefined by the platform), and then saw this reduced even more when the platform prevents "contractors" from negotiating in this way with each customer - clearly they are a contractor no more
        6y ago

No, very often it's a yes/no and there are many people in the line behind you who will take the job.

I did have that opportunity, as does an Uber driver. But, as is the case in any negotiation, the counterparty has the right to hold firm on the price.

namdnay 6y ago
An Uber driver has no opportunity to negotiate the rate with the customer. If in the app you said "I want to go to the airport" and then each driver interested replied with a quote, that would be rate negotiation.
- emteycz 6y ago
  You're negotiating with Uber, not with customers. Uber says take it or leave it, and you can work with another company if it has better terms/rate.
  - vidarh 6y ago
    Uber pretends you're working for the customer, not them. That is a key element in their attempt to pretend they're not an employer.
    - emteycz 6y ago
      Negotiating with Uber, not working for Uber. Uber is a middleman/platform connecting customers with providers, guaranteeing terms of contract to both parties. It works just the same with most IT contracting firms (and the same is true in other sectors too - construction, medical, etc).
      - vidarh 6y ago
        A lot of IT contracting firms in the UK have in recent years had to drastically change their practices exactly because ensuring a contract does not create a relationship that would be deemed to be an employment relationship has gotten progressively harder, exactly because it was being massively abused, so this is a very poor argument in the UK. The lack of ability to negotiate prices - be it with a middleman or the actual customer - is one of several tests to that points strongly towards an employee relationship, whether you're a driver or an IT contractor. I'll note that I see you say elsewhere you're an IT contractor. If you're an IT contractor in the UK, I presume you've had to answer questions about IR35. If you haven't, then you really should have a discussion about IR35 with your accountant, because get that wrong and you risk facing a massive tax bill.
        emteycz 6y ago
        I don't understand what do you mean. Does the middleman have to accept whatever I say, or how does this negotiation work? Either we agree, or we don't, I don't see any difference between my IT contracting negotiation and using Uber. One would say that employment is hourly/daily/monthly/yearly based payment - so IT contracting would fall into that, but I don't see how Uber's per-ride rating would fit there. That the price is set by the middleman doesn't mean there isn't negotiation - the contractor can simply disagree, as opposed to an employee who has to do the assigned work and isn't paid based on its completion. I'm an IT contractor in the UK, but not an UK resident nor citizen; my accountant said IR35 doesn't apply to me then.
        vidarh 6y ago
        There needs to be an actual ability to negotiate. If they say no, so be it, but Uber does not provide a mechanism for drivers to give a counter-offer, so there is no negotiation. For your comparison to contracting, I've contracted quite a lot, and I have always had the ability to state my rate, and the client have had the ability to state theirs, and we arrive at something that may be mine, or theirs or something in between, but there has always been actual discussion. With Uber you're presented with a price, and you take it or leave it, and if you leave it Uber never comes back with a higher price - on the contrary, if you keep leaving it they may penalise you. That alone would not necessarily have caused it to be deemed employment, but combined with the other element that all points to drivers having very little control demonstrates that this is not a contract entered into by equals, but one were drivers are subservient, and that points very strongly to an employee relationship under UK law. That there may be similar elements in your IT contracting does not mean Uber drivers are not employees, but that you might be. E.g. when I did contracting: * I always negotiated a rate, whether or not there was a middleman in the process. * There was always a defined end to the contract (but it could be extended) * I had marketing costs. * I paid for my own equipment, and the costs were amortised over my contracts. * I had more than one client at a time a lot of the time, but certainly more than one per year. * I decided when I worked, and how to do the work, and where to work and it was not ordinarily in their offices. Each one of those pointed towards me being a genuine contractor outside of IR35. Each one of them going the other way would not individually mean I was suddenly inside IR35 or in a deemed employment, but each additional one would increase the likelihood the relationship is an employment relationship. EDIT: To make it clear, IR35 is the tax treatment only, but it's often a useful proxy to indicate whether or not you have a claim to be an employee, because the tests that indicate if you're within IR35 are much the same things a court or tribunal would consider if you were to ask them to rule on whether or not you're an employee. EDIT2: Also, if you're a contractor in the UK but not resident that points to a short term contract. That does suggest you'd not be considered an employee, certainly.
  - baq 6y ago
    only being able to accept or refuse is hardly negotiation - and if you refuse enough times, they kick you, so you can't really refuse.
    - emteycz 6y ago
      Consider that employee can't negotiate at all - you do what your boss tells you or you are fired, even in Europe - not performing assigned work is specifically written in the law as fireable offense. Accepting or declining terms certainly is negotiation, even if it seems limited. It's not true that you can't refuse to ride! I have driven many Uber rides as driver (and about 100x more as a passenger) - what will get you kicked out is marking yourself available and then declining rides - because it makes the customer experience much worse. You know the minimal rate per mile beforehand and it can only get better for you, never worse. You're free to turn it off at any time and for as long as you wish and you won't be kicked out - that's absolutely impossible for employees. The IT contracting firm I work with would kick me out the first time I said I am available and then declined.
      - namdnay 6y ago
        > Accepting or declining terms certainly is negotiation, even if it seems limited [...] what will get you kicked out is marking yourself available and then declining rides There is a contradiction here... Keep in mind that Uber have always explicitly stated that they are just a platform to connect drivers with passengers. So the negotiation (even if it is just accepting or declining terms) must happen between the driver and the customer - i.e. every new passenger. Except that, as you point out, Uber punishes drivers who negotiate in this way! The driver isn't even allowed to refuse customers. It's as if you told your agent "ok I'm open to work", they reply "there's a job 150 miles away, you need to be there at 6am every morning", and you weren't allowed to decline! So we started with very little negotiation power (the "contractor" can say yes or no to the terms predefined by the platform), and then saw this reduced even more when the platform prevents "contractors" from negotiating in this way with each customer - clearly they are a contractor no more
        6y ago