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> For the qualities under discussion, generation companies have seemingly acted in lockstep, therefore it makes sense to view them as a singular entity. And it'

> For the qualities under discussion, generation companies have seemingly acted in lockstep, therefore it makes sense to view them as a singular entity. And it's not productive to call signing up for electric service consensual in any meaningful way. The ability to technically opt out isn't worth much when it would significantly impact your life, as evidenced by the vanishingly small amount of people who do so. This is true. > You can also come at the reduction from the other direction and define how interacting with the "government" is technically consensual as well. eg don't pay taxes, do the work required to not have your income flows surveilled, etc. Or in this case, don't sign up for the (de jure) government power grid, and go your own way. This is willfully ignorant of how governments don’t let people do any of this. Being subjected to violence if you decline to participate is the opposite of consent. > The point is that all frameworks ultimately have their limits - they are only good when their reasoning power holds. True understanding requires being able to switch between them as appropriate, rather than shoehorning everything into one and insisting that it must fit. I agree with this and I was unclear. I mention consenting interactions because many of the people who oppose increases in the scope of state-sponsored activities prefer to source their necessities from markets. I’m aware that the tentacles of the government are long and broad and no part of the economy (least of all power generation) is free from this interference. There was probably a better way to express this in this thread.

mindslight 6y ago
> This is willfully ignorant of how governments don’t let people do any of this I haven't heard of municipal light companies making it illegal to generate your own electricity or not connect your house to the grid, apart from general fit-for-occupancy laws. Similarly, the IRS doesn't have a cause of action if you deliberately earn less to pay less taxes (there is no "capitation" tax). So we can call those things consensual in a similar manner as signing up with a privately owned electric monopoly - all have narrow paths whereby you can technically go your own way. In general for any given decree, one can always choose to to ignore it and bear specific consequences. This applies to de jure governments and de facto government alike. It takes a functioning market with many different options to diminish those consequences to the point where they can be accepted as some natural order rather than centralized diktats.
- chordalkeyboard 6y ago
  > I haven't heard of municipal light companies making it illegal to generate your own electricity or not connect your house to the grid, apart from general fit-for-occupancy laws. It sounds like you haven’t done much research on this but anyone who has tried to opt out quickly discovers that these things exist. For example, in many municipalities it is illegal to occupy a dwelling that is not served with electricity from the grid. Having discovered this myself because the power company refused to sell me power, because they couldn’t confirm my identity, because they only way they were willing to confirm my identity was through a credit bureau asking me about my credit history, of which for some reason they had no records, (respectfully) I’m unwilling to do the unpaid labor of searching the internet to prove something I know very well from personal experience. Suffice it to say I rented a house and was unable to legally occupy it for a week because I had to get someone else to call the power company and turn on the lights. There are laws that prevent people from opting out. > In general for any given decree, one can always choose to to ignore it and bear specific consequences. This applies to de jure governments and de facto government alike. It takes a functioning market with many different options to diminish those consequences to the point where they can be accepted as some natural order rather than centralized diktats. Agreed, and thanks for the reply.

mindslight 6y ago

> This is willfully ignorant of how governments don’t let people do any of this I haven't heard of municipal light companies making it illegal to generate your own electricity or not connect your house to the grid, apart from general fit-for-occupancy laws. Similarly, the IRS doesn't have a cause of action if you deliberately earn less to pay less taxes (there is no "capitation" tax). So we can call those things consensual in a similar manner as signing up with a privately owned electric monopoly - all have narrow paths whereby you can technically go your own way. In general for any given decree, one can always choose to to ignore it and bear specific consequences. This applies to de jure governments and de facto government alike. It takes a functioning market with many different options to diminish those consequences to the point where they can be accepted as some natural order rather than centralized diktats.

chordalkeyboard 6y ago
> I haven't heard of municipal light companies making it illegal to generate your own electricity or not connect your house to the grid, apart from general fit-for-occupancy laws. It sounds like you haven’t done much research on this but anyone who has tried to opt out quickly discovers that these things exist. For example, in many municipalities it is illegal to occupy a dwelling that is not served with electricity from the grid. Having discovered this myself because the power company refused to sell me power, because they couldn’t confirm my identity, because they only way they were willing to confirm my identity was through a credit bureau asking me about my credit history, of which for some reason they had no records, (respectfully) I’m unwilling to do the unpaid labor of searching the internet to prove something I know very well from personal experience. Suffice it to say I rented a house and was unable to legally occupy it for a week because I had to get someone else to call the power company and turn on the lights. There are laws that prevent people from opting out. > In general for any given decree, one can always choose to to ignore it and bear specific consequences. This applies to de jure governments and de facto government alike. It takes a functioning market with many different options to diminish those consequences to the point where they can be accepted as some natural order rather than centralized diktats. Agreed, and thanks for the reply.