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> These are the exact same pathology. You're drawing a distinction based on whether one is "government", but they're the same type of lethargic entrenched entit

> These are the exact same pathology. You're drawing a distinction based on whether one is "government", but they're the same type of lethargic entrenched entity, regardless of how they were chartered. One type of lethargic entrenched entity survives on the basis of consensual interactions, the other survives on the basis of economic values extracted by threats of violence. The pathology is in forcing the people who want to benefit from consensual interactions to support a system of coercion. > The actual problem is the lack of accountability. The free market philosophy points us to exit as an ideal of accountability. Sometimes exit works very well - switching electric providers during quiescent times to get pricing that better matches your usage. And sometimes relying on exit fails terribly, like this rare event where it is easier to balk at obligations rather than have prepared enough to fulfill them. If we care about exit in general, then it behooves us to recognize when it fails. I can agree with this.

mindslight 6y ago
> One type of lethargic entrenched entity survives on the basis of consensual interactions So goes your theory, but not in actual practice. For the qualities under discussion, generation companies have seemingly acted in lockstep, therefore it makes sense to view them as a singular entity. And it's not productive to call signing up for electric service consensual in any meaningful way. The ability to technically opt out isn't worth much when it would significantly impact your life, as evidenced by the vanishingly small amount of people who do so. You can also come at the reduction from the other direction and define how interacting with the "government" is technically consensual as well. eg don't pay taxes, do the work required to not have your income flows surveilled, etc. Or in this case, don't sign up for the (de jure) government power grid, and go your own way. Which is equivalent to what you would have had to do in the first scenario anyway - both scenarios end up with people who devoted their lives to being independent from the electrical grid being fine, and those who didn't freezing. The point is that all frameworks ultimately have their limits - they are only good when their reasoning power holds. True understanding requires being able to switch between them as appropriate, rather than shoehorning everything into one and insisting that it must fit.
- chordalkeyboard 6y ago
  > For the qualities under discussion, generation companies have seemingly acted in lockstep, therefore it makes sense to view them as a singular entity. And it's not productive to call signing up for electric service consensual in any meaningful way. The ability to technically opt out isn't worth much when it would significantly impact your life, as evidenced by the vanishingly small amount of people who do so. This is true. > You can also come at the reduction from the other direction and define how interacting with the "government" is technically consensual as well. eg don't pay taxes, do the work required to not have your income flows surveilled, etc. Or in this case, don't sign up for the (de jure) government power grid, and go your own way. This is willfully ignorant of how governments don’t let people do any of this. Being subjected to violence if you decline to participate is the opposite of consent. > The point is that all frameworks ultimately have their limits - they are only good when their reasoning power holds. True understanding requires being able to switch between them as appropriate, rather than shoehorning everything into one and insisting that it must fit. I agree with this and I was unclear. I mention consenting interactions because many of the people who oppose increases in the scope of state-sponsored activities prefer to source their necessities from markets. I’m aware that the tentacles of the government are long and broad and no part of the economy (least of all power generation) is free from this interference. There was probably a better way to express this in this thread.
  - mindslight 6y ago
    > This is willfully ignorant of how governments don’t let people do any of this I haven't heard of municipal light companies making it illegal to generate your own electricity or not connect your house to the grid, apart from general fit-for-occupancy laws. Similarly, the IRS doesn't have a cause of action if you deliberately earn less to pay less taxes (there is no "capitation" tax). So we can call those things consensual in a similar manner as signing up with a privately owned electric monopoly - all have narrow paths whereby you can technically go your own way. In general for any given decree, one can always choose to to ignore it and bear specific consequences. This applies to de jure governments and de facto government alike. It takes a functioning market with many different options to diminish those consequences to the point where they can be accepted as some natural order rather than centralized diktats.

mindslight 6y ago

> One type of lethargic entrenched entity survives on the basis of consensual interactions So goes your theory, but not in actual practice. For the qualities under discussion, generation companies have seemingly acted in lockstep, therefore it makes sense to view them as a singular entity. And it's not productive to call signing up for electric service consensual in any meaningful way. The ability to technically opt out isn't worth much when it would significantly impact your life, as evidenced by the vanishingly small amount of people who do so. You can also come at the reduction from the other direction and define how interacting with the "government" is technically consensual as well. eg don't pay taxes, do the work required to not have your income flows surveilled, etc. Or in this case, don't sign up for the (de jure) government power grid, and go your own way. Which is equivalent to what you would have had to do in the first scenario anyway - both scenarios end up with people who devoted their lives to being independent from the electrical grid being fine, and those who didn't freezing. The point is that all frameworks ultimately have their limits - they are only good when their reasoning power holds. True understanding requires being able to switch between them as appropriate, rather than shoehorning everything into one and insisting that it must fit.

chordalkeyboard 6y ago
> For the qualities under discussion, generation companies have seemingly acted in lockstep, therefore it makes sense to view them as a singular entity. And it's not productive to call signing up for electric service consensual in any meaningful way. The ability to technically opt out isn't worth much when it would significantly impact your life, as evidenced by the vanishingly small amount of people who do so. This is true. > You can also come at the reduction from the other direction and define how interacting with the "government" is technically consensual as well. eg don't pay taxes, do the work required to not have your income flows surveilled, etc. Or in this case, don't sign up for the (de jure) government power grid, and go your own way. This is willfully ignorant of how governments don’t let people do any of this. Being subjected to violence if you decline to participate is the opposite of consent. > The point is that all frameworks ultimately have their limits - they are only good when their reasoning power holds. True understanding requires being able to switch between them as appropriate, rather than shoehorning everything into one and insisting that it must fit. I agree with this and I was unclear. I mention consenting interactions because many of the people who oppose increases in the scope of state-sponsored activities prefer to source their necessities from markets. I’m aware that the tentacles of the government are long and broad and no part of the economy (least of all power generation) is free from this interference. There was probably a better way to express this in this thread.
- mindslight 6y ago
  > This is willfully ignorant of how governments don’t let people do any of this I haven't heard of municipal light companies making it illegal to generate your own electricity or not connect your house to the grid, apart from general fit-for-occupancy laws. Similarly, the IRS doesn't have a cause of action if you deliberately earn less to pay less taxes (there is no "capitation" tax). So we can call those things consensual in a similar manner as signing up with a privately owned electric monopoly - all have narrow paths whereby you can technically go your own way. In general for any given decree, one can always choose to to ignore it and bear specific consequences. This applies to de jure governments and de facto government alike. It takes a functioning market with many different options to diminish those consequences to the point where they can be accepted as some natural order rather than centralized diktats.