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The environmental impact of an individual person buying a new vs. used laptop isn’t even worth considering. If an individual can sway the actions of thousands o

The environmental impact of an individual person buying a new vs. used laptop isn’t even worth considering. If an individual can sway the actions of thousands or tens of thousands of people, then it’s worth considering, perhaps it is. How people (not necessarily the author) will scrutinize the environmental consequences of inconsequential decisions while willfully ignoring the big picture never ceases to amaze me. Kids, meat/dairy, housing, travel. If you want to make environmentally sound decisions, that’s all you can do. Don’t have kids, don’t eat meat/dairy, live in as small a home/dense housing as possible, and don’t get on planes. No amount of buying used laptops can make a dent compared to those things.

throwaway3699 6y ago
Some of those things you've listed at the end make life worth living. No, we need to make those things more environmentally friendly, not regress as a species.
- xiphias2 6y ago
  For a gamer the new laptop is make life worth living, so I guess it's all relative :) But sure, if a person doesn't care about getting a new computer, it's not totally fine as well.
- paulcole 6y ago
  I never said they didn’t. I said don’t delude yourself that buying a used laptop has any real impact on the environment. There’s simply no way to have a biological child and be environmentally friendly. Can’t put it any more simply. I’ve got no issue with people who want biological kids. Just acknowledge that it’s a selfish choice and don’t pretend that you can buy a used laptop like that matters in the slightest.
  - pjerem 6y ago
    I think you underestimate network effect. What is important is not your direct impact on environment by using a old computer. But what really is, is : - proving to the world around you that the same work can be done with a good old computer for 10x less money. - proving yourself that life can be lived without buying new things every once a while (computers, cars, furniture ...) - enabling basically everyone to have access to a decent computer, and to the internet - it forces you to understand how such a central concept of our era just works and how you, as a human being, have the power to make it work as long as possible I know it can be difficult to understand this on HN, but the vast majority of humanity doesn't have any control over the computer they use. The industry just telled them that computers are complex and "sort of magic" objects that just works or get irremediably slow. So, the real impact on the environment you have by using "old" computers, is proving to yourself, and to the world - including your kids - , that caring about what you already own is an enjoyable way to live full of real gratifications that are not just the dopamine peak you've got when you unbox a new computer. For your point on the kids, I agree with you. But kids are just the number one reason we try to keep this planet livable. What's the point of preserving this planet if the humanity is going to die in the next 100 years ? We are talking about keeping our home livable, not a collective suicide.
    - paulcole 6y ago
      > it forces you to understand how such a central concept of our era just works and how you, as a human being, have the power to make it work as long as possible It does no such thing. Instead it tricks someone into thinking that buying a used laptop is impactful when it absolutely truly isn’t. It lets them feel good about the many truly awful decisions they make on a daily basis. If a person thinks that buying a used anything is how we “make it work as long as possible” they are sorely mistaken. It’s like thinking a guy sticking an oar in the water is going to slow the Titanic. Yes, technically the Titanic has slowed down by a minute amount but the icebergs not going to notice the difference. > What's the point of preserving this planet if the humanity is going to die in the next 100 years? This is a great question and one we’re seeing play out right now. I don’t think the timeline is as short as 100 years but life 250 years from now is going to be absolutely awful. Personally, I don’t care one bit. I’ll be dead and I’m not adding more people to the mess. But if someone does care and they’re having kids, they need to do a helluva lot more than teach them to buy used laptops.
forgotmypw17 6y ago
I think you underestimate the impact of one new device being produced. Also, there is the matter of being complicit, whether or not your choice makes a 'real' impact.
- paulcole 6y ago
  I do not underestimate it. I eat a plant based diet, live in a tiny apartment, will never have children, and never fly (have never driven a car either). I’m complicit. A person can buy a used laptop and they’re still complicit, too. Sure, they can say “I’m not part of the problem” and feel good about it but that’s what people do. Bury their heads in the sand and make themselves feel good. It’s why we’re in the mess we’re in. We’re all complicit.
  - forgotmypw17 6y ago
    You're right that we are all complicit... In my mind, I sometimes get this visual of that scene from Full Metal Jacket, the one with the towel and bar of soap... I get that sense that we're all taking turns thwacking our biome/biosphere/relatives a couple of times and then passing it... I commend you on your efforts to reduce your complicity and sharing your successes for our inspiration. Thank you. (I still think anything is better than brand new when it comes to electronics, but you're way ahead of the pack.)
    - paulcole 6y ago
      No need to thank me. I’m no altruist. The decisions I’ve made are selfish and ones that let me live the life I want. If I found out tomorrow that the Earth was cooling too fast and I needed to start driving, flying, and running the heat constantly in my giant house for the good of everyone, I wouldn’t do it. I like not driving, not flying, and living in a tiny apartment. It’s just fortunate that these things are also “good” for the planet.
fulafel 6y ago
Also cars. But in the greater scheme of things, this is the big problem of environmental self-whataboutism. Do what you can, even smaller things. For example, if you do decide to have a kid, doing the other things will instill better values on them and will mitigate them getting angry with you for making their world unliveable when they develop thinking capabilities.
- paulcole 6y ago
  > Do what you can, even smaller things I completely disagree. We’re so close to 100% fucked that if you’re not willing to do the big things, just do whatever you want and enjoy the ride. If you’re alive now, you’re not going to be around when the bill really comes due anyway.

throwaway3699 6y ago

Some of those things you've listed at the end make life worth living. No, we need to make those things more environmentally friendly, not regress as a species.

xiphias2 6y ago
For a gamer the new laptop is make life worth living, so I guess it's all relative :) But sure, if a person doesn't care about getting a new computer, it's not totally fine as well.
paulcole 6y ago
I never said they didn’t. I said don’t delude yourself that buying a used laptop has any real impact on the environment. There’s simply no way to have a biological child and be environmentally friendly. Can’t put it any more simply. I’ve got no issue with people who want biological kids. Just acknowledge that it’s a selfish choice and don’t pretend that you can buy a used laptop like that matters in the slightest.
- pjerem 6y ago
  I think you underestimate network effect. What is important is not your direct impact on environment by using a old computer. But what really is, is : - proving to the world around you that the same work can be done with a good old computer for 10x less money. - proving yourself that life can be lived without buying new things every once a while (computers, cars, furniture ...) - enabling basically everyone to have access to a decent computer, and to the internet - it forces you to understand how such a central concept of our era just works and how you, as a human being, have the power to make it work as long as possible I know it can be difficult to understand this on HN, but the vast majority of humanity doesn't have any control over the computer they use. The industry just telled them that computers are complex and "sort of magic" objects that just works or get irremediably slow. So, the real impact on the environment you have by using "old" computers, is proving to yourself, and to the world - including your kids - , that caring about what you already own is an enjoyable way to live full of real gratifications that are not just the dopamine peak you've got when you unbox a new computer. For your point on the kids, I agree with you. But kids are just the number one reason we try to keep this planet livable. What's the point of preserving this planet if the humanity is going to die in the next 100 years ? We are talking about keeping our home livable, not a collective suicide.
  - paulcole 6y ago
    > it forces you to understand how such a central concept of our era just works and how you, as a human being, have the power to make it work as long as possible It does no such thing. Instead it tricks someone into thinking that buying a used laptop is impactful when it absolutely truly isn’t. It lets them feel good about the many truly awful decisions they make on a daily basis. If a person thinks that buying a used anything is how we “make it work as long as possible” they are sorely mistaken. It’s like thinking a guy sticking an oar in the water is going to slow the Titanic. Yes, technically the Titanic has slowed down by a minute amount but the icebergs not going to notice the difference. > What's the point of preserving this planet if the humanity is going to die in the next 100 years? This is a great question and one we’re seeing play out right now. I don’t think the timeline is as short as 100 years but life 250 years from now is going to be absolutely awful. Personally, I don’t care one bit. I’ll be dead and I’m not adding more people to the mess. But if someone does care and they’re having kids, they need to do a helluva lot more than teach them to buy used laptops.

forgotmypw17 6y ago

I think you underestimate the impact of one new device being produced. Also, there is the matter of being complicit, whether or not your choice makes a 'real' impact.

paulcole 6y ago
I do not underestimate it. I eat a plant based diet, live in a tiny apartment, will never have children, and never fly (have never driven a car either). I’m complicit. A person can buy a used laptop and they’re still complicit, too. Sure, they can say “I’m not part of the problem” and feel good about it but that’s what people do. Bury their heads in the sand and make themselves feel good. It’s why we’re in the mess we’re in. We’re all complicit.
- forgotmypw17 6y ago
  You're right that we are all complicit... In my mind, I sometimes get this visual of that scene from Full Metal Jacket, the one with the towel and bar of soap... I get that sense that we're all taking turns thwacking our biome/biosphere/relatives a couple of times and then passing it... I commend you on your efforts to reduce your complicity and sharing your successes for our inspiration. Thank you. (I still think anything is better than brand new when it comes to electronics, but you're way ahead of the pack.)
  - paulcole 6y ago
    No need to thank me. I’m no altruist. The decisions I’ve made are selfish and ones that let me live the life I want. If I found out tomorrow that the Earth was cooling too fast and I needed to start driving, flying, and running the heat constantly in my giant house for the good of everyone, I wouldn’t do it. I like not driving, not flying, and living in a tiny apartment. It’s just fortunate that these things are also “good” for the planet.

fulafel 6y ago

Also cars. But in the greater scheme of things, this is the big problem of environmental self-whataboutism. Do what you can, even smaller things. For example, if you do decide to have a kid, doing the other things will instill better values on them and will mitigate them getting angry with you for making their world unliveable when they develop thinking capabilities.

paulcole 6y ago
> Do what you can, even smaller things I completely disagree. We’re so close to 100% fucked that if you’re not willing to do the big things, just do whatever you want and enjoy the ride. If you’re alive now, you’re not going to be around when the bill really comes due anyway.