5 ms·

It's partially tied to ethnic affiliation, but that is not an essential aspect of the term. For instance, Trevor Noah's comments on the French football team wou

by Bakary 6y ago

It's partially tied to ethnic affiliation, but that is not an essential aspect of the term. For instance, Trevor Noah's comments on the French football team would definitely be referred to as an anglo-saxon perspective even though the man himself would not be considered as such by anglophones since the term refers almost exclusively to ethnicity in English. Although the average Frenchman could always stand to learn more about the anglosphere, the usage of the word anglo-saxon in French isn't borne out of ignorance of cultural nuance, but is often invoked and defined in contrast to French or French-inspired values. As such, the term is still popular because it's still highly relevant: whenever there's some kerfuffle about secularism or some other salient clash of values, the anglosphere tends to present the same predictable range of responses whether they are Anglo-Canadians or Irish, POC or WASP, immigrant or Baskerville. Naturally, people from the anglosphere don't enjoy being conceptually lumped together by outsiders (leading to the misunderstandings mentioned earlier) but in this case it's not just casual prejudice on the part of the French (even though it no doubt plays a role) but a recurrent difference in values that has real consequences. In my view, it is as real a concept as "the West" is for example.

mancerayder 6y ago
>As such, the term is still popular because it's still highly relevant: whenever there's some kerfuffle about secularism or some other salient clash of values, the anglosphere tends to present the same predictable range of responses whether they are Anglo-Canadians or Irish, POC or WASP, immigrant or Baskerville. That's too strong a claim. It probably was more true in 1960 than in 2020, given how much has changed. For example, the prudeness was a common stereotype of both Americans and Brits, but it's changed much since those days. The generations are so different from one another, it's quite a shock to many. And let's not get started with cities versus towns. In cities, things are so international they (cities) often have similar attitudes with one another across national boundaries. Subjectively, having lived in the UK, I often felt there was more in common between the British and the French than either with Americans. Friendships, attitudes to strangers, and romantic relationships. Religiosity is more common in the US. I'm not talking politics here - what's an example of this commonality of Anglo-Saxon culture or kurfuffle that clashes with French culture? Political correctness? Religiosity ?
- Bakary 6y ago
  To cite a few examples, the talk about the French football team in 2018 was a clash between the French universalist vision and the anglo-saxon melting pot vision. The veil and French secularist rules is also a classic issue that comes up once every few years. Remnants of protestant ideology, attitudes towards work and food and sex are also themes that come up fairly often. I think you are actually on to something. Our conversation forced me to critically evaluate things I hadn't really thought of before. It's quite possible we might be among the last generations for whom the word will still be relevant since the current youngest crop of people are already quite heavily influenced by American culture. And to some extent much of the meaning of the word tends to be about what Americans specifically do since they are so completely dominant in the anglosphere. It's true that the UK has quite a bit in common with France. To be clear, I wasn't implying that every anglosphere person does the same thing all the time. More like a common thread that comes up in certain situations where French culture doesn't coincide. The word is paradoxically dependent on France having failed to create a competing francosphere. There are many regions where French is the main language, but there isn't really such a thing as the Commonwealth. Quebec evolved without much mutual contact for centuries. Francophone countries in Africa have many ties but mostly do their own thing. Belgians and Swiss don't care. There is also an identification of modern consumerism and "late stage capitalism" (a loaded term, but I don't know what else to use) as originating in the anglosphere and being spread by it, which is semi-correct, I suppose. (for instance, McDonald's compared to French traditions regarding food) There is thus the notion of an overwhelming cultural force bursting out the door, which is not just an abstract concern since the international urban culture is heavily based on the American one. It's not uncommon for younger generations to know and care more about American politics than their own, as evidenced last summer with BLM movements across the world using the exact same tropes even though there are important local differences and histories on how racism manifests in each country (and especially in France compared to the US)
  - mancerayder 6y ago
    Yeah, I see and understand that the identification with American capitalism and the spread of those ideas, and how those ideas (liberal / free market / commerce) ideas are absolutely associated with the Anglosphere. They developed there 'first' (ish / really Northern Europe too), then you had the British Empire in the 19th and the American hegemony in the 20th century. The dominant force of culture via media, movies, and its adoption in France, thanks to the free market, has been good in some ways and bad in others in France. I do understand it bred much resentment. If I can take a pause and suggest, too, that every country has its scapegoats and when I hear people in France say things like, oh, the violence in the banlieue is due to American influence (I heard this not in regards to BLM today but actually 20 years ago), I have to raise one eyebrow. I think the American influence thing has truth to it but in France the political conversation on both right and left seems to exaggerate it for drama, I think you'll agree. It behaves like France is not an agent of its own will. Anyway, a salient difference that you highlighted between the societies is the cohesive idea of France and the cohesive idea of England or the cohesive idea of the United States. At least forgive me if I'm reading a bit in between the lines. In France, the core principles as you alluded to, of laïcité, to take one example, is core to the identity of France, sure. So of course, if a country like the U.S. which was explicitly founded BY religous people fleeing England, that cannot / will not be understood. The melting pot idea is a tough one to discuss not least because it's extremely complicated (and in today's climate it's dangerous to talk about), but when you're in the EU with open borders, you're a country that founded the idea of the EU, one expectation is the free movement of people (a principle adopted since at least the 80's). So even if the United States never existed, it would still be a challenge to negotiate conceptually for people in France tied to older ways of viewing the world. You mentioned that the urban centers are American. I was thinking about this. I don't know if it's true or if it's false, but I live an American megacity, surrounded by upscale Chinese, and I (not so much on purpose but by habit) eat Asian meals probably 50+% of my meals (including sometimes cooking it), I live in a building designed for Chinese investors and their aesthetic tastes even, and from a consumer perspective most of what I wear and buy isn't an American style, but I'm generic here. What's an American urban center? London is similar, and honestly even Paris has large aspects where it feels like any of these other places. I'm not so sure it's specifically American or ever was. A lot of people think New York, specifically Manhattan, is very European, which may shock you. I've heard the same of how many American cities are changing. Are you referring or did you see the NYT article attacking France's secularism as racism in disguise? I honestly don't see that viewpoint as the majority in the U.S., if it's any consolation!

by Bakary 6y ago

mancerayder 6y ago

>As such, the term is still popular because it's still highly relevant: whenever there's some kerfuffle about secularism or some other salient clash of values, the anglosphere tends to present the same predictable range of responses whether they are Anglo-Canadians or Irish, POC or WASP, immigrant or Baskerville. That's too strong a claim. It probably was more true in 1960 than in 2020, given how much has changed. For example, the prudeness was a common stereotype of both Americans and Brits, but it's changed much since those days. The generations are so different from one another, it's quite a shock to many. And let's not get started with cities versus towns. In cities, things are so international they (cities) often have similar attitudes with one another across national boundaries. Subjectively, having lived in the UK, I often felt there was more in common between the British and the French than either with Americans. Friendships, attitudes to strangers, and romantic relationships. Religiosity is more common in the US. I'm not talking politics here - what's an example of this commonality of Anglo-Saxon culture or kurfuffle that clashes with French culture? Political correctness? Religiosity ?

Bakary 6y ago
To cite a few examples, the talk about the French football team in 2018 was a clash between the French universalist vision and the anglo-saxon melting pot vision. The veil and French secularist rules is also a classic issue that comes up once every few years. Remnants of protestant ideology, attitudes towards work and food and sex are also themes that come up fairly often. I think you are actually on to something. Our conversation forced me to critically evaluate things I hadn't really thought of before. It's quite possible we might be among the last generations for whom the word will still be relevant since the current youngest crop of people are already quite heavily influenced by American culture. And to some extent much of the meaning of the word tends to be about what Americans specifically do since they are so completely dominant in the anglosphere. It's true that the UK has quite a bit in common with France. To be clear, I wasn't implying that every anglosphere person does the same thing all the time. More like a common thread that comes up in certain situations where French culture doesn't coincide. The word is paradoxically dependent on France having failed to create a competing francosphere. There are many regions where French is the main language, but there isn't really such a thing as the Commonwealth. Quebec evolved without much mutual contact for centuries. Francophone countries in Africa have many ties but mostly do their own thing. Belgians and Swiss don't care. There is also an identification of modern consumerism and "late stage capitalism" (a loaded term, but I don't know what else to use) as originating in the anglosphere and being spread by it, which is semi-correct, I suppose. (for instance, McDonald's compared to French traditions regarding food) There is thus the notion of an overwhelming cultural force bursting out the door, which is not just an abstract concern since the international urban culture is heavily based on the American one. It's not uncommon for younger generations to know and care more about American politics than their own, as evidenced last summer with BLM movements across the world using the exact same tropes even though there are important local differences and histories on how racism manifests in each country (and especially in France compared to the US)
- mancerayder 6y ago
  Yeah, I see and understand that the identification with American capitalism and the spread of those ideas, and how those ideas (liberal / free market / commerce) ideas are absolutely associated with the Anglosphere. They developed there 'first' (ish / really Northern Europe too), then you had the British Empire in the 19th and the American hegemony in the 20th century. The dominant force of culture via media, movies, and its adoption in France, thanks to the free market, has been good in some ways and bad in others in France. I do understand it bred much resentment. If I can take a pause and suggest, too, that every country has its scapegoats and when I hear people in France say things like, oh, the violence in the banlieue is due to American influence (I heard this not in regards to BLM today but actually 20 years ago), I have to raise one eyebrow. I think the American influence thing has truth to it but in France the political conversation on both right and left seems to exaggerate it for drama, I think you'll agree. It behaves like France is not an agent of its own will. Anyway, a salient difference that you highlighted between the societies is the cohesive idea of France and the cohesive idea of England or the cohesive idea of the United States. At least forgive me if I'm reading a bit in between the lines. In France, the core principles as you alluded to, of laïcité, to take one example, is core to the identity of France, sure. So of course, if a country like the U.S. which was explicitly founded BY religous people fleeing England, that cannot / will not be understood. The melting pot idea is a tough one to discuss not least because it's extremely complicated (and in today's climate it's dangerous to talk about), but when you're in the EU with open borders, you're a country that founded the idea of the EU, one expectation is the free movement of people (a principle adopted since at least the 80's). So even if the United States never existed, it would still be a challenge to negotiate conceptually for people in France tied to older ways of viewing the world. You mentioned that the urban centers are American. I was thinking about this. I don't know if it's true or if it's false, but I live an American megacity, surrounded by upscale Chinese, and I (not so much on purpose but by habit) eat Asian meals probably 50+% of my meals (including sometimes cooking it), I live in a building designed for Chinese investors and their aesthetic tastes even, and from a consumer perspective most of what I wear and buy isn't an American style, but I'm generic here. What's an American urban center? London is similar, and honestly even Paris has large aspects where it feels like any of these other places. I'm not so sure it's specifically American or ever was. A lot of people think New York, specifically Manhattan, is very European, which may shock you. I've heard the same of how many American cities are changing. Are you referring or did you see the NYT article attacking France's secularism as racism in disguise? I honestly don't see that viewpoint as the majority in the U.S., if it's any consolation!