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> I kind of wish some of the SQLAlchemy core devs spent a bit of time using ActiveRecord to appreciate how an ORM can make defining and querying relations strai

> I kind of wish some of the SQLAlchemy core devs spent a bit of time using ActiveRecord to appreciate how an ORM can make defining and querying relations straightforward and easy. The main SQLA developer, and the whole team, has been doing this now for almost 3 decades, has presented on and had thousands of serious detailed technical discussions on the subject with a diverse range of industry participants, and I can assure you is WELL aware of how ActiveRecord works and all of the patterns around it.

qbasic_forever 6y ago
And? Is it a documentation problem then, that the SQL alchemy devs don't think it's worth the time to explain to devs familiar with active record what they gain using SQLA?
- zzzeek 6y ago
  you get to think in terms of SQL and relational algebra is the basic idea. Here's one of my talks that discusses this: https://www.sqlalchemy.org/library.html#handcodedapplicationswithsqlalchemy https://www.sqlalchemy.org/library.html#handcodedapplication... as for "it's hard to translate from SQL to ORM" that's a huge part of what 1.4/2.0 is trying to make more obvious. But to be fair I get very few "how do I write this in SQL" questions these days as things are pretty 1-1 in any case now; the remaining weak spots (awkwardness with unions, support for table-valued expressions) are addressed in 1.4/2.0 and the relatively awkward "session.query()" model is now legacy.
- michelpp 6y ago
  Search "sqlalchemy activerecord" and you will find tutorials, compare and contrast posts, pros and cons, and several implementations for sqlalchemy and many other languages and libraries using the activerecord pattern. SQLAlchemy, and Python in general, is highly extensible, it can do the ActiveRecord pattern and many other patterns depending on the data, not just the needs of a content publication system. Here's a couple random AR/SQLA implementations I plucked from DDG: https://pypi.org/project/sqlalchemy-mixins/ https://pypi.org/project/sqlalchemy-mixins/ https://pypi.org/project/Flask-ActiveRecord/ https://pypi.org/project/Flask-ActiveRecord/

qbasic_forever 6y ago

And? Is it a documentation problem then, that the SQL alchemy devs don't think it's worth the time to explain to devs familiar with active record what they gain using SQLA?

zzzeek 6y ago
you get to think in terms of SQL and relational algebra is the basic idea. Here's one of my talks that discusses this: https://www.sqlalchemy.org/library.html#handcodedapplicationswithsqlalchemy https://www.sqlalchemy.org/library.html#handcodedapplication... as for "it's hard to translate from SQL to ORM" that's a huge part of what 1.4/2.0 is trying to make more obvious. But to be fair I get very few "how do I write this in SQL" questions these days as things are pretty 1-1 in any case now; the remaining weak spots (awkwardness with unions, support for table-valued expressions) are addressed in 1.4/2.0 and the relatively awkward "session.query()" model is now legacy.
michelpp 6y ago
Search "sqlalchemy activerecord" and you will find tutorials, compare and contrast posts, pros and cons, and several implementations for sqlalchemy and many other languages and libraries using the activerecord pattern. SQLAlchemy, and Python in general, is highly extensible, it can do the ActiveRecord pattern and many other patterns depending on the data, not just the needs of a content publication system. Here's a couple random AR/SQLA implementations I plucked from DDG: https://pypi.org/project/sqlalchemy-mixins/ https://pypi.org/project/sqlalchemy-mixins/ https://pypi.org/project/Flask-ActiveRecord/ https://pypi.org/project/Flask-ActiveRecord/