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>your argument really holds no weight with me. It doesn't need to. I'm not trying to change your mind. I'm explaining to you why some people prefer the option

>your argument really holds no weight with me. It doesn't need to. I'm not trying to change your mind. I'm explaining to you why some people prefer the option to use an ecosystem that has a walled garden vs. one that doesn't. Unfortunately for you, the majority of people must agree and be ok with the walled gardens provided by Apple because they continue to buy the products. If people wanted the freedom you're describing, they'd buy an Android phone. If they by an Apple phone, it's because they're ok with that not being an option and some, like me, not only don't mind but actively prefer that.

wayneftw 6y ago
> I'm not trying to change your mind. You entered a lot of comments in this thread when one comment could have sufficed to get your message across. So you'll have to excuse me if I remain unconvinced of your motivation. > Unfortunately for you, the majority of people must agree and be ok with the walled gardens provided by Apple because they continue to buy the products. That's patently false. As I mentioned earlier, I myself buy iPhones and iPads despite the fact that I'm not okay with the walled garden as the sole method of loading software. I've also seen many, many people in this thread and in threads past express my same views. Heck, you can see it everywhere even among non-programming hangouts like reddit, 9gag, etc. There's a difference between begrudgingly accepting some sad state of affairs and actively pursuing it. > If people wanted the freedom you're describing, they'd buy an Android phone. That's better stated as "If the only thing people wanted was freedom of software sources, they'd buy a particular Android model and brand of phone that allows them that freedom." In other words, you're grossly oversimplifying the problem. As with all things, there's usually a multitude of competing desires driving someones choices. For the masses, software freedom doesn't even enter their minds. Instead, they decide based on their susceptibility to marketing, their financial means (price), what their friends are using, what they're used to and so on. Luckily for me, the masses don't decide on this. Just like in Banking, Finance, Health and other industries that widely affect the common man - the common man doesn't decide the rules for those industries either. The people working in it do - and I'm one of the people working in it. Do you think common people cared that Microsoft was bundling Internet Explorer with Windows? Not really, not outside of Slashdot in that day - Netscape, Oracle and other affected companies got the ball rolling on that one. Even a small group of Linux users were able to push for getting refunds from OEMs on Windows bundled with their PCs. With iPhones approaching 50% general market share in the US and 80-90% of the youth market in the US gravitating towards iPhones (which will cause the general market share to keep rising) - the writing is on the wall. They're going to be forced to open up somehow. The only question is what form that is going to take and where (EU/US/Asia). Apple will follow the laws of the land and the law is a constantly changing battleground, especially for a new-ish field such as ours.
stale2002 6y ago
> Unfortunately for you, the majority of people must agree and be ok with the walled gardens I am sure that many people would be fine with being given the voluntary option of turning the switch on, to side load if they choose to do so though. And you have no significant evidence that if many people were given the option to buy a perfectly identical Iphone, that simply was easier to jailbreak, that people would automatically choose the locked down version. You have evidence of people prefering iphones over android. But you have no evidence about if someone was offered two otherwise identical Iphone, that people would always choose to not even have the option of switching the jail break switch if it were easy. The obvious solution would be to give people the option of getting access to the easy to jailbrake iphones and seeing what they would prefer.
- dkonofalski 6y ago
  That's irrelevant. Apple doesn't offer that option so discussing something that doesn't exist right now makes no sense.
  - wayneftw 6y ago
    That's pretty much what the whole thread is discussing?
  - stale2002 6y ago
    > Apple doesn't offer that option so discussing something that doesn't exist right now makes no sense It is relevant because I think that a lot of people would want this option, and this would solve the issue by allowing people to voluntarily choose this.

wayneftw 6y ago

> I'm not trying to change your mind. You entered a lot of comments in this thread when one comment could have sufficed to get your message across. So you'll have to excuse me if I remain unconvinced of your motivation. > Unfortunately for you, the majority of people must agree and be ok with the walled gardens provided by Apple because they continue to buy the products. That's patently false. As I mentioned earlier, I myself buy iPhones and iPads despite the fact that I'm not okay with the walled garden as the sole method of loading software. I've also seen many, many people in this thread and in threads past express my same views. Heck, you can see it everywhere even among non-programming hangouts like reddit, 9gag, etc. There's a difference between begrudgingly accepting some sad state of affairs and actively pursuing it. > If people wanted the freedom you're describing, they'd buy an Android phone. That's better stated as "If the only thing people wanted was freedom of software sources, they'd buy a particular Android model and brand of phone that allows them that freedom." In other words, you're grossly oversimplifying the problem. As with all things, there's usually a multitude of competing desires driving someones choices. For the masses, software freedom doesn't even enter their minds. Instead, they decide based on their susceptibility to marketing, their financial means (price), what their friends are using, what they're used to and so on. Luckily for me, the masses don't decide on this. Just like in Banking, Finance, Health and other industries that widely affect the common man - the common man doesn't decide the rules for those industries either. The people working in it do - and I'm one of the people working in it. Do you think common people cared that Microsoft was bundling Internet Explorer with Windows? Not really, not outside of Slashdot in that day - Netscape, Oracle and other affected companies got the ball rolling on that one. Even a small group of Linux users were able to push for getting refunds from OEMs on Windows bundled with their PCs. With iPhones approaching 50% general market share in the US and 80-90% of the youth market in the US gravitating towards iPhones (which will cause the general market share to keep rising) - the writing is on the wall. They're going to be forced to open up somehow. The only question is what form that is going to take and where (EU/US/Asia). Apple will follow the laws of the land and the law is a constantly changing battleground, especially for a new-ish field such as ours.

stale2002 6y ago

> Unfortunately for you, the majority of people must agree and be ok with the walled gardens I am sure that many people would be fine with being given the voluntary option of turning the switch on, to side load if they choose to do so though. And you have no significant evidence that if many people were given the option to buy a perfectly identical Iphone, that simply was easier to jailbreak, that people would automatically choose the locked down version. You have evidence of people prefering iphones over android. But you have no evidence about if someone was offered two otherwise identical Iphone, that people would always choose to not even have the option of switching the jail break switch if it were easy. The obvious solution would be to give people the option of getting access to the easy to jailbrake iphones and seeing what they would prefer.

dkonofalski 6y ago
That's irrelevant. Apple doesn't offer that option so discussing something that doesn't exist right now makes no sense.
- wayneftw 6y ago
  That's pretty much what the whole thread is discussing?
- stale2002 6y ago
  > Apple doesn't offer that option so discussing something that doesn't exist right now makes no sense It is relevant because I think that a lot of people would want this option, and this would solve the issue by allowing people to voluntarily choose this.