3 ms·

No, it makes sense. It's in fact the flip coin of some of the main advantages of the industry IMHO: 1. There's a lot of self-taught developers, so there isn't

No, it makes sense. It's in fact the flip coin of some of the main advantages of the industry IMHO: 1. There's a lot of self-taught developers, so there isn't a high bar to enter the industry like in other professions like Engineering, Law or Medicine (and these usually include an apprenticeship period as well, often missing in programming). 2. While I love that we are well paid, that's a huge risk for a company to hire someone and this being a potato hire. So I understand that companies really really want to do their best to only hire great people, however misguided these attempts are. 3. It isn't usually "totally unrelated", it's more like they are testing the theoretical part of things instead of the practical. This, as I said, happen in other professions as well and that's why normally there's apprenticeship periods. I'm definitely not defending some of the ridiculous, cargo-cult practices of many interviews today (like "esoteric questions"). I'm just explaining why I think it makes sense to have an "entry exam" of sorts in the interviews.

giantg2 6y ago
I think some of this depends on where you're at. Like your #1 isn't really a great comparison. The vast majority of developers are building/maintaining boring stuff for businesses. Most of the time, this doesn't require as much training or skill like a doctor or a lawyer. Sure, there's no law preventing people who didn't pass some cert like the bar or board, but a resume with past experience should be a pretty good indication. Along those same lines, not all of us get paid a lot of money. Most doctors and lawyers make multiples of what I do (median salaries would show developers being lower than the others). This might be different for the Bay area, but I would also guess the doctors and lawyers make more there too just due to cost of living.
- franciscop 6y ago
  > The vast majority of developers are building/maintaining boring stuff They are still coding, so the test is supposed to asses their ability to do that. > Law practice can be intellectually rigorous, but much of a lawyer's work is actually mundane and repetitive. - https://www.thebalancecareers.com/myths-regarding-the-practice-of-law-2164697 https://www.thebalancecareers.com/myths-regarding-the-practi... Seems related? From the Lawyers I know and developers I know, I'd say both are skillful technical jobs that need to be assessed. Totally different skillsets, but both go quite in-depth that you cannot just get a random person and get them doing that. Doctor jobs just seem way too hard.
  - giantg2 6y ago
    "They are still coding, so the test is supposed to asses their ability to do that." It depends on the test. If you're just doing a simple code screen - that's fine. This thread was addressing trivia questions and testa that don't actually test a person kn the type of work they would be doing. Do lawyers take 3-6 months off to study for their next position? Are they asked in those interviews to explain things in unrelated areas of law from which they will be practicing? They have an industry standard instead of random (and potentially biased) questions - law school and the bar.
    - franciscop 6y ago
      No, this thread is not addressing trivia questions, only normal questions that might seem unrelated to the day jobs and the fact that there is a test at all. The OP asks about both, studying for questions unrelated to day-job AND about trivia questions, and I agree with them that trivia questions are silly and explain the other point. Almost no developer "take 3-6 months off to study for their next position", please do not distort reality, that might happen to some but def not the norm. I'd say the normal is 1 week to 1 month of studying on the evenings after work. Lawyers AFAIK is based a lot on reputation, which includes seeing them work, personal recommendations, etc. Is that better than a test when switching jobs?
      - giantg2 6y ago
        "Almost no developer "take 3-6 months off to study for their next position", please do not distort reality, that might happen to some but def not the norm. I'd say the normal is 1 week to 1 month of studying on the evenings after work." I've seen a number of posts on HN where people are taking significantly longer than one month. If the reality is as you say, then that is trivial and the whole basis of the OPs post (and the vast majority of people's responses here) is moot. Most of that reputation is really past performance and experience on cases. Things like win %. Devs don't have any similarly standard comparison metrics.
        username90 6y ago

giantg2 6y ago

I think some of this depends on where you're at. Like your #1 isn't really a great comparison. The vast majority of developers are building/maintaining boring stuff for businesses. Most of the time, this doesn't require as much training or skill like a doctor or a lawyer. Sure, there's no law preventing people who didn't pass some cert like the bar or board, but a resume with past experience should be a pretty good indication. Along those same lines, not all of us get paid a lot of money. Most doctors and lawyers make multiples of what I do (median salaries would show developers being lower than the others). This might be different for the Bay area, but I would also guess the doctors and lawyers make more there too just due to cost of living.

franciscop 6y ago
> The vast majority of developers are building/maintaining boring stuff They are still coding, so the test is supposed to asses their ability to do that. > Law practice can be intellectually rigorous, but much of a lawyer's work is actually mundane and repetitive. - https://www.thebalancecareers.com/myths-regarding-the-practice-of-law-2164697 https://www.thebalancecareers.com/myths-regarding-the-practi... Seems related? From the Lawyers I know and developers I know, I'd say both are skillful technical jobs that need to be assessed. Totally different skillsets, but both go quite in-depth that you cannot just get a random person and get them doing that. Doctor jobs just seem way too hard.
- giantg2 6y ago
  "They are still coding, so the test is supposed to asses their ability to do that." It depends on the test. If you're just doing a simple code screen - that's fine. This thread was addressing trivia questions and testa that don't actually test a person kn the type of work they would be doing. Do lawyers take 3-6 months off to study for their next position? Are they asked in those interviews to explain things in unrelated areas of law from which they will be practicing? They have an industry standard instead of random (and potentially biased) questions - law school and the bar.
  - franciscop 6y ago
    No, this thread is not addressing trivia questions, only normal questions that might seem unrelated to the day jobs and the fact that there is a test at all. The OP asks about both, studying for questions unrelated to day-job AND about trivia questions, and I agree with them that trivia questions are silly and explain the other point. Almost no developer "take 3-6 months off to study for their next position", please do not distort reality, that might happen to some but def not the norm. I'd say the normal is 1 week to 1 month of studying on the evenings after work. Lawyers AFAIK is based a lot on reputation, which includes seeing them work, personal recommendations, etc. Is that better than a test when switching jobs?
    - giantg2 6y ago
      "Almost no developer "take 3-6 months off to study for their next position", please do not distort reality, that might happen to some but def not the norm. I'd say the normal is 1 week to 1 month of studying on the evenings after work." I've seen a number of posts on HN where people are taking significantly longer than one month. If the reality is as you say, then that is trivial and the whole basis of the OPs post (and the vast majority of people's responses here) is moot. Most of that reputation is really past performance and experience on cases. Things like win %. Devs don't have any similarly standard comparison metrics.
      - username90 6y ago