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The word doesn't just refer to the language but to a certain way of thinking that is recognizable and common to all the anglosphere cultures and nations. Using

by Bakary 6y ago

The word doesn't just refer to the language but to a certain way of thinking that is recognizable and common to all the anglosphere cultures and nations. Using "anglophone" would not work.

mancerayder 6y ago
I'm familiar with it and the context, a mix of political and cultural. But in France older people still call Indians 'Hindus' despite having the largest Muslim population in the world and other religious groups. Anglo-Saxon refers to a people that ruled England when they invaded Britain in the Middle Ages, and dominated politically up to the present. The Irish, Welsh, etc in Britain, the many immigrants there and in the US and Australia, would probably find it an outdated term. WASP is one we use in the US for something similar, referring to cultural and academic institutions and such, but I feel like it's fallen out of favor.
- Bakary 6y ago
  It's partially tied to ethnic affiliation, but that is not an essential aspect of the term. For instance, Trevor Noah's comments on the French football team would definitely be referred to as an anglo-saxon perspective even though the man himself would not be considered as such by anglophones since the term refers almost exclusively to ethnicity in English. Although the average Frenchman could always stand to learn more about the anglosphere, the usage of the word anglo-saxon in French isn't borne out of ignorance of cultural nuance, but is often invoked and defined in contrast to French or French-inspired values. As such, the term is still popular because it's still highly relevant: whenever there's some kerfuffle about secularism or some other salient clash of values, the anglosphere tends to present the same predictable range of responses whether they are Anglo-Canadians or Irish, POC or WASP, immigrant or Baskerville. Naturally, people from the anglosphere don't enjoy being conceptually lumped together by outsiders (leading to the misunderstandings mentioned earlier) but in this case it's not just casual prejudice on the part of the French (even though it no doubt plays a role) but a recurrent difference in values that has real consequences. In my view, it is as real a concept as "the West" is for example.
  - mancerayder 6y ago
    >As such, the term is still popular because it's still highly relevant: whenever there's some kerfuffle about secularism or some other salient clash of values, the anglosphere tends to present the same predictable range of responses whether they are Anglo-Canadians or Irish, POC or WASP, immigrant or Baskerville. That's too strong a claim. It probably was more true in 1960 than in 2020, given how much has changed. For example, the prudeness was a common stereotype of both Americans and Brits, but it's changed much since those days. The generations are so different from one another, it's quite a shock to many. And let's not get started with cities versus towns. In cities, things are so international they (cities) often have similar attitudes with one another across national boundaries. Subjectively, having lived in the UK, I often felt there was more in common between the British and the French than either with Americans. Friendships, attitudes to strangers, and romantic relationships. Religiosity is more common in the US. I'm not talking politics here - what's an example of this commonality of Anglo-Saxon culture or kurfuffle that clashes with French culture? Political correctness? Religiosity ?
    - Bakary 6y ago
      To cite a few examples, the talk about the French football team in 2018 was a clash between the French universalist vision and the anglo-saxon melting pot vision. The veil and French secularist rules is also a classic issue that comes up once every few years. Remnants of protestant ideology, attitudes towards work and food and sex are also themes that come up fairly often. I think you are actually on to something. Our conversation forced me to critically evaluate things I hadn't really thought of before. It's quite possible we might be among the last generations for whom the word will still be relevant since the current youngest crop of people are already quite heavily influenced by American culture. And to some extent much of the meaning of the word tends to be about what Americans specifically do since they are so completely dominant in the anglosphere. It's true that the UK has quite a bit in common with France. To be clear, I wasn't implying that every anglosphere person does the same thing all the time. More like a common thread that comes up in certain situations where French culture doesn't coincide. The word is paradoxically dependent on France having failed to create a competing francosphere. There are many regions where French is the main language, but there isn't really such a thing as the Commonwealth. Quebec evolved without much mutual contact for centuries. Francophone countries in Africa have many ties but mostly do their own thing. Belgians and Swiss don't care. There is also an identification of modern consumerism and "late stage capitalism" (a loaded term, but I don't know what else to use) as originating in the anglosphere and being spread by it, which is semi-correct, I suppose. (for instance, McDonald's compared to French traditions regarding food) There is thus the notion of an overwhelming cultural force bursting out the door, which is not just an abstract concern since the international urban culture is heavily based on the American one. It's not uncommon for younger generations to know and care more about American politics than their own, as evidenced last summer with BLM movements across the world using the exact same tropes even though there are important local differences and histories on how racism manifests in each country (and especially in France compared to the US)

by Bakary 6y ago

The word doesn't just refer to the language but to a certain way of thinking that is recognizable and common to all the anglosphere cultures and nations. Using "anglophone" would not work.

mancerayder 6y ago

I'm familiar with it and the context, a mix of political and cultural. But in France older people still call Indians 'Hindus' despite having the largest Muslim population in the world and other religious groups. Anglo-Saxon refers to a people that ruled England when they invaded Britain in the Middle Ages, and dominated politically up to the present. The Irish, Welsh, etc in Britain, the many immigrants there and in the US and Australia, would probably find it an outdated term. WASP is one we use in the US for something similar, referring to cultural and academic institutions and such, but I feel like it's fallen out of favor.

Bakary 6y ago
It's partially tied to ethnic affiliation, but that is not an essential aspect of the term. For instance, Trevor Noah's comments on the French football team would definitely be referred to as an anglo-saxon perspective even though the man himself would not be considered as such by anglophones since the term refers almost exclusively to ethnicity in English. Although the average Frenchman could always stand to learn more about the anglosphere, the usage of the word anglo-saxon in French isn't borne out of ignorance of cultural nuance, but is often invoked and defined in contrast to French or French-inspired values. As such, the term is still popular because it's still highly relevant: whenever there's some kerfuffle about secularism or some other salient clash of values, the anglosphere tends to present the same predictable range of responses whether they are Anglo-Canadians or Irish, POC or WASP, immigrant or Baskerville. Naturally, people from the anglosphere don't enjoy being conceptually lumped together by outsiders (leading to the misunderstandings mentioned earlier) but in this case it's not just casual prejudice on the part of the French (even though it no doubt plays a role) but a recurrent difference in values that has real consequences. In my view, it is as real a concept as "the West" is for example.
- mancerayder 6y ago
  >As such, the term is still popular because it's still highly relevant: whenever there's some kerfuffle about secularism or some other salient clash of values, the anglosphere tends to present the same predictable range of responses whether they are Anglo-Canadians or Irish, POC or WASP, immigrant or Baskerville. That's too strong a claim. It probably was more true in 1960 than in 2020, given how much has changed. For example, the prudeness was a common stereotype of both Americans and Brits, but it's changed much since those days. The generations are so different from one another, it's quite a shock to many. And let's not get started with cities versus towns. In cities, things are so international they (cities) often have similar attitudes with one another across national boundaries. Subjectively, having lived in the UK, I often felt there was more in common between the British and the French than either with Americans. Friendships, attitudes to strangers, and romantic relationships. Religiosity is more common in the US. I'm not talking politics here - what's an example of this commonality of Anglo-Saxon culture or kurfuffle that clashes with French culture? Political correctness? Religiosity ?
  - Bakary 6y ago
    To cite a few examples, the talk about the French football team in 2018 was a clash between the French universalist vision and the anglo-saxon melting pot vision. The veil and French secularist rules is also a classic issue that comes up once every few years. Remnants of protestant ideology, attitudes towards work and food and sex are also themes that come up fairly often. I think you are actually on to something. Our conversation forced me to critically evaluate things I hadn't really thought of before. It's quite possible we might be among the last generations for whom the word will still be relevant since the current youngest crop of people are already quite heavily influenced by American culture. And to some extent much of the meaning of the word tends to be about what Americans specifically do since they are so completely dominant in the anglosphere. It's true that the UK has quite a bit in common with France. To be clear, I wasn't implying that every anglosphere person does the same thing all the time. More like a common thread that comes up in certain situations where French culture doesn't coincide. The word is paradoxically dependent on France having failed to create a competing francosphere. There are many regions where French is the main language, but there isn't really such a thing as the Commonwealth. Quebec evolved without much mutual contact for centuries. Francophone countries in Africa have many ties but mostly do their own thing. Belgians and Swiss don't care. There is also an identification of modern consumerism and "late stage capitalism" (a loaded term, but I don't know what else to use) as originating in the anglosphere and being spread by it, which is semi-correct, I suppose. (for instance, McDonald's compared to French traditions regarding food) There is thus the notion of an overwhelming cultural force bursting out the door, which is not just an abstract concern since the international urban culture is heavily based on the American one. It's not uncommon for younger generations to know and care more about American politics than their own, as evidenced last summer with BLM movements across the world using the exact same tropes even though there are important local differences and histories on how racism manifests in each country (and especially in France compared to the US)