10 ms·

This is silly, we are all observed by other people almost all of our lives, but that's fine because they don't conspire behind our backs to create a comprehensi

by simonh 6y ago

This is silly, we are all observed by other people almost all of our lives, but that's fine because they don't conspire behind our backs to create a comprehensive record that's handed over to the government. I don't mind if the building security records me entering the building, or the bank records me using the ATM, or that London Transport videos me on the train. What I object to is if all of those are stitched together and handed over to advertising agencies or my employer. Likewise I don't care that Google knows what I searched for, or that Twitter knows what I tweeted, or that LinkedIn has my employment history. What I don't want is all of that being sold to Cambridge Analytica to then aggregate and sell on to someone else for goodness knows what purposes. An awful lot of my life and interests are easily searchable. My handle here is basically just my name, and I use the same handle or even more complete versions everywhere I can. When I'm out in public, the public can see me. When I post in public, the public can read what I say. That's fine, that's why I said it. However my private correspondences with my wife and kids on iMessage or WhatsApp are nobody else's business. My bank transactions and online shopping likewise, that latter is mainly between me and Amazon. Where I would get upset is if Amazon sold that data to Google to show me 'relevant ads', or show my purchases to my friends. Remember Facebook Beacon? There need to be clear, hard lines in the sand.

zeta0134 6y ago
This is something I wish was noted more often. When I'm searching for something on Amazon, I have intentionally visited that storefront and am willfully handing them my data (in the form of search and browsing history); of course Amazon is going to keep that and use it to personalize my results. Frankly that's part of their value add, so this is neither surprising nor particularly upsetting. What's surprising to most people (and should be the focus of any litigation, imho) is precisely this third-party data sharing. It's partly why the cookie law drives me nuts, since it's made all tracking the bogeyman, and in reality, most first party "tracking" is completely benign. If companies would agree not to sell or share my data with third parties (law enforcement serving a warrant being the major exception) then I have no real issue with the tech. The blatant sharing, and especially ad networks make my blood boil.
- sandworm101 6y ago
  >> of course Amazon is going to keep that and use it to personalize my results. Frankly that's part of their value add You think it is value add because you assume they are using the data to send you more relevant content. That's just not how data is always used. A google customer (eg an advertiser) might want to hit you with deliberately non-relevant ads, ads to divert you away from a competitor product. You might want to book a trip to visit family in Hawaii, but the Florida resort advertiser doesn't much care what you want actually. They will hit you with Florida ads in hopes that they can divert a potential traveler to a different destination. You will miss out on relevant Hawaii content simply because Florida has paid more to put content in front of you.
  - zeta0134 6y ago
    Don't misunderstand: this is a bad advertising practice. I don't like most advertising, relevant or otherwise, so if this happens as you describe then yes, the value add is negative. That doesn't make the data usage surprising though, and that was my point. It's okay if Amazon uses data I entered into search directly to advertise to me, even if they're not very good at it. Ethically, no line was crossed here. What would be surprising (to most consumers) is if the Florida resort advertiser, instead of bidding on some broad target demographic, has access to enough data to target me individually. However that comes about, that is the line that is crossed. Why does the third party have direct(ish) access to this data? Why wasn't I informed? Etc. Whether that is direct sale of the data, or indirect targeting through unusually specific ad campaign targeting, the effect is the same: it's creepy.
  - gumby 6y ago
    Also they can use this to change the price they offer you
- clairity 6y ago
  > "...willfully handing them my data (in the form of search and browsing history); of course Amazon is going to keep that and use it to personalize my results." sure for the few minutes that that data is relevant to selling you stuff you're looking for right now, but why would you expect them to keep it for longer, as this seems to imply? the time dimension matters too. keeping that data for more than a few minutes should also be explicitly opt-in, as it's data being collected and potentially shared in the future (intentionally or not). reach and accessibility are naturally limited 'in the old days' where a salesperson might remember your preferences, even writing them down to share with other salespeople, but that data hardly leaked out to other retailers (and potential competitors). it seems that that should be our baseline, and any further gathering/sharing be subject to explicit opt-in.
SamuelAdams 6y ago
> I would get upset is if Amazon sold that data to Google to show me 'relevant ads' If the email account you use for Amazon is a Gmail account they email a receipt of purchase to that account, which Google will use for 'relevant ads'. But of course in that case you are expressly granting permission for Amazon to contact google. If it was done via a TOS agreement or something then yes I agree, that would be concerning.
- andagainagain 6y ago
  Even then, that's more a problem with google than amazon. Or, more accurately, it's a problem that we treat email as electronic mail. We feel we own the account like we own our address, Heck, for some stupid reason we use them for identification all over the internet. But technologically, they are postcards sent to a business. And we just visit the business to pick up our postcards. Imagine every time you bought something, they sent the receipt to walmart for you to pick up. Not in an envelope, just handed to the guy at the counter and put into a box for you. We never should have let email get this far, but we did.
- dnissley 6y ago
  Supposedly that's no longer the case: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/23/technology/gmail-ads.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/23/technology/gmail-ads.html
andagainagain 6y ago
Indeed. I'm not trying to separate myself from society. I'm just trying to keep the stalkers away. A lot of companies seem to want to act less like members of society and more like stalkers.
hinkley 6y ago
My go-to response for people who say "If you don't have anything to hide then why do you care if we know?" Is that clearly they have never bought Preparation-H or itch cream from the drugstore, or they're not thinking about how that purchase is not information their classmates or rivals need to know about. I once told someone something about my kid, and they responded, "why haven't you told me this before???" My flat reply was, "because it's not the most interesting thing about her." I'm about 50-50 on smart versus stupid answers, but occasionally I surprise even myself. That's one of my best one-liners. Setting aside police/surveillance state dystopias for a moment: People try to make you small by labeling you. The more things they know about you, the more labels they have. If you don't believe me just look at the sewer that flows through replies to AOC's tweets. Having depression as a teenager should not define you. Being a survivor of assault or harassment should not define you. Having a working class upbringing should not pigeonhole you. Having an itchy groin should not be ammo for somebody to derail and deflect what you're trying to do. Mind your own goddamned business and keep the conversation on topics that are actually relevant, like your embezzlement conviction or my ongoing bribery lawsuit.
ttt0 6y ago
> Likewise I don't care that Google knows what I searched for, or that Twitter knows what I tweeted, or that LinkedIn has my employment history. What I don't want is all of that being sold to Cambridge Analytica to then aggregate and sell on to someone else for goodness knows what purposes. So you don't like Cambridge Analytica, but Google, Twitter and LinkedIn using your data for goodness know what purposes is fine? I'm pretty sure they're running all that data through all sorts of machine learning algorithms and some of that might be used at some point for surveillance and censorship purposes or dystopian stuff in general. Not might, will be, if already isn't. Because you'd have to be stupid to have this amount of data and not use it to further your political agenda.
- simonh 6y ago
  They need this information to provide the services they offer, if you don’t want the services don’t provide the data. I thought I made it abundantly, crystal clear I am against them arbitraging or selling this data for other purposes of the kind you describe. That’s what we need to focus on with regulation. Of course they want to use this data for other purposes, and we need to make sure they do not. I find it somewhat exasperating that you seem to think I believe otherwise.
doggodaddo78 6y ago
Live in a glass house, tell me your complete sexual history including all of the kinks you're ashamed of, and give me your email password. I thought so. Your viewpoint come across as extremely naïve until you've had political persecution, targeted harassment, or stalking issues. Privacy isn't something you or anyone else gets to decide no one else needs because you don't understand it or value it, but you're free to try living in a fantasy world so long as you don't put the lives of reporters or refugees at risk, or condone the invasion of the lives and personal effects of others.
grawprog 6y ago
>Likewise I don't care that Google knows what I searched for, or that Twitter knows what I tweeted, or that LinkedIn has my employment history. What I don't want is all of that being sold to Cambridge Analytica to then aggregate and sell on to someone else for goodness knows what purposes. This logic would be fine if all google did was search, if all amazon did was shopping, but they don't. They have federal government contracts, they work with defense contractors and law enforcement, they control huge amounts of the internet infrastructure. Google, amazon, facebook gathering your data is more than just a search engine, a store front and a social network gathering it, even if theh share it with nobody other than their internal businesess, those ternal businesses have massive control over the internet qnd many people's lives.
einpoklum 6y ago
> but that's fine because they don't conspire behind our backs to create a comprehensive record that's handed over to the government. > I don't mind if the building security records me entering the building, or the bank records me using the ATM Actually, I would pretty much bet the government in a bunch of states in the world can access your bank records. Places like the US, or China, or Russia. But let's ignore that. > What I object to is if all of those are stitched together and handed over to advertising agencies or my employer. The thing is, once the information is gathered, and stored, it's an easy transition to feed it somewhere. And judging by current trends, - some company will soon offer pay those disparate surveillers to feed such data to it, constantly - since it can processed and analyzed en masse, and monetized. Oh, and they'll probably send the government a copy of everything too (judging by what FAANG do, for example). > Likewise I don't care that Google knows what I searched for That's not "likewise". Google is already a huge stitcher of surveillance - the kind you said you disapprove of. And, again, they send everything to the US government. > that latter is mainly between me and Amazon. You mean between you and the entity controlling a huge chunk of all on-line commerce and whose operations are larger in monetary terms than most states in the world? And that acts like a government with its own body of rules and internal judicial system for disputes? ... yeah, it's "just" between you and them.
feralimal 6y ago
You're naive, sorry to say. I would think that all that data is being shared. And if its not being shared now, it is being recorded. And an AI will run through all that information and process it in the future. Why anyone would trust self-serving governments and corporations with private information amazes me! It is a perfectly rational hypothesis to consider that a lot of the reasons governments use to take civil liberties away, are ones that they orchestrated themselves to facilitate their power grab. To not consider this as a possibility, in psychological terms, is like being the co-dependent in a narcissistic relationship, or like the victim in Stockholm syndrome - you can't imagine that someone would be that abusive, even though you know already that governments and corporations do NOT have your back. All government conspiracy aside, anyone can see that one makes lots of decisions to do things (or not) on account of what it means to be in public. In your mind, contrast the idea of being in public in a busy city versus a quiet country road. You do not act in the same way! You are under greater stress in a city, you will conform with the social norms as you perceive them, you will not 'flower' as an individual. This stuff is all known. We are better managed in cities hence 'they' want to move the mass of people into 'smart' (spy) cities. Its not a secret. Its been being planned for a long time. Look into technocracy.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- simonh 6y ago
  Of course it is, I even game examples of data being used in that way (Beacon and Cambridge Analytica). How can you possibly think I’m not aware of activities I cited examples of? That’s exactly the sort of thing we need to focus our efforts on stopping,
peterwoerner 6y ago
Very few people articulate the upside of the data sharing well. And that is the internet allows people to connect with the long tail customers. All of a sudden I can make friends with other worm farmers in the world. Not only that, but using this data I can effectively find other people who would probably be interested in worm farming and tell them about it. And grow the community of worm farmers. Not only that but individuals can now build niche businesses based around worm farming because they can find their potential customers. You can replace worm farming with every esoteric interest. On one hand the internet and the big data platforms of Amazon, facebook etc. have allowed this economy and communities based on esoteric interests, but on the other hand they are able to manipulate us else like nobodies business and greed ensures that if it isn't being used adversarially now it will certainly be in the future.
pjmlp 6y ago
> This is silly, we are all observed by other people almost all of our lives, but that's fine because they don't conspire behind our backs to create a comprehensive record that's handed over to the government. While I agree with most of what you say, and also almost everything from me is relatively easy to find, my parents and family experience living under Salazar´s dictatorship, or the lasting effects from Stasi over here in Germany, keeps me always aware to keep a good price in what we give away.

by simonh 6y ago

zeta0134 6y ago

This is something I wish was noted more often. When I'm searching for something on Amazon, I have intentionally visited that storefront and am willfully handing them my data (in the form of search and browsing history); of course Amazon is going to keep that and use it to personalize my results. Frankly that's part of their value add, so this is neither surprising nor particularly upsetting. What's surprising to most people (and should be the focus of any litigation, imho) is precisely this third-party data sharing. It's partly why the cookie law drives me nuts, since it's made all tracking the bogeyman, and in reality, most first party "tracking" is completely benign. If companies would agree not to sell or share my data with third parties (law enforcement serving a warrant being the major exception) then I have no real issue with the tech. The blatant sharing, and especially ad networks make my blood boil.

sandworm101 6y ago
>> of course Amazon is going to keep that and use it to personalize my results. Frankly that's part of their value add You think it is value add because you assume they are using the data to send you more relevant content. That's just not how data is always used. A google customer (eg an advertiser) might want to hit you with deliberately non-relevant ads, ads to divert you away from a competitor product. You might want to book a trip to visit family in Hawaii, but the Florida resort advertiser doesn't much care what you want actually. They will hit you with Florida ads in hopes that they can divert a potential traveler to a different destination. You will miss out on relevant Hawaii content simply because Florida has paid more to put content in front of you.
- zeta0134 6y ago
  Don't misunderstand: this is a bad advertising practice. I don't like most advertising, relevant or otherwise, so if this happens as you describe then yes, the value add is negative. That doesn't make the data usage surprising though, and that was my point. It's okay if Amazon uses data I entered into search directly to advertise to me, even if they're not very good at it. Ethically, no line was crossed here. What would be surprising (to most consumers) is if the Florida resort advertiser, instead of bidding on some broad target demographic, has access to enough data to target me individually. However that comes about, that is the line that is crossed. Why does the third party have direct(ish) access to this data? Why wasn't I informed? Etc. Whether that is direct sale of the data, or indirect targeting through unusually specific ad campaign targeting, the effect is the same: it's creepy.
- gumby 6y ago
  Also they can use this to change the price they offer you
clairity 6y ago
> "...willfully handing them my data (in the form of search and browsing history); of course Amazon is going to keep that and use it to personalize my results." sure for the few minutes that that data is relevant to selling you stuff you're looking for right now, but why would you expect them to keep it for longer, as this seems to imply? the time dimension matters too. keeping that data for more than a few minutes should also be explicitly opt-in, as it's data being collected and potentially shared in the future (intentionally or not). reach and accessibility are naturally limited 'in the old days' where a salesperson might remember your preferences, even writing them down to share with other salespeople, but that data hardly leaked out to other retailers (and potential competitors). it seems that that should be our baseline, and any further gathering/sharing be subject to explicit opt-in.

SamuelAdams 6y ago

> I would get upset is if Amazon sold that data to Google to show me 'relevant ads' If the email account you use for Amazon is a Gmail account they email a receipt of purchase to that account, which Google will use for 'relevant ads'. But of course in that case you are expressly granting permission for Amazon to contact google. If it was done via a TOS agreement or something then yes I agree, that would be concerning.

andagainagain 6y ago
Even then, that's more a problem with google than amazon. Or, more accurately, it's a problem that we treat email as electronic mail. We feel we own the account like we own our address, Heck, for some stupid reason we use them for identification all over the internet. But technologically, they are postcards sent to a business. And we just visit the business to pick up our postcards. Imagine every time you bought something, they sent the receipt to walmart for you to pick up. Not in an envelope, just handed to the guy at the counter and put into a box for you. We never should have let email get this far, but we did.
dnissley 6y ago
Supposedly that's no longer the case: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/23/technology/gmail-ads.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/23/technology/gmail-ads.html

andagainagain 6y ago

Indeed. I'm not trying to separate myself from society. I'm just trying to keep the stalkers away. A lot of companies seem to want to act less like members of society and more like stalkers.

hinkley 6y ago

My go-to response for people who say "If you don't have anything to hide then why do you care if we know?" Is that clearly they have never bought Preparation-H or itch cream from the drugstore, or they're not thinking about how that purchase is not information their classmates or rivals need to know about. I once told someone something about my kid, and they responded, "why haven't you told me this before???" My flat reply was, "because it's not the most interesting thing about her." I'm about 50-50 on smart versus stupid answers, but occasionally I surprise even myself. That's one of my best one-liners. Setting aside police/surveillance state dystopias for a moment: People try to make you small by labeling you. The more things they know about you, the more labels they have. If you don't believe me just look at the sewer that flows through replies to AOC's tweets. Having depression as a teenager should not define you. Being a survivor of assault or harassment should not define you. Having a working class upbringing should not pigeonhole you. Having an itchy groin should not be ammo for somebody to derail and deflect what you're trying to do. Mind your own goddamned business and keep the conversation on topics that are actually relevant, like your embezzlement conviction or my ongoing bribery lawsuit.

ttt0 6y ago

> Likewise I don't care that Google knows what I searched for, or that Twitter knows what I tweeted, or that LinkedIn has my employment history. What I don't want is all of that being sold to Cambridge Analytica to then aggregate and sell on to someone else for goodness knows what purposes. So you don't like Cambridge Analytica, but Google, Twitter and LinkedIn using your data for goodness know what purposes is fine? I'm pretty sure they're running all that data through all sorts of machine learning algorithms and some of that might be used at some point for surveillance and censorship purposes or dystopian stuff in general. Not might, will be, if already isn't. Because you'd have to be stupid to have this amount of data and not use it to further your political agenda.

simonh 6y ago
They need this information to provide the services they offer, if you don’t want the services don’t provide the data. I thought I made it abundantly, crystal clear I am against them arbitraging or selling this data for other purposes of the kind you describe. That’s what we need to focus on with regulation. Of course they want to use this data for other purposes, and we need to make sure they do not. I find it somewhat exasperating that you seem to think I believe otherwise.

doggodaddo78 6y ago

Live in a glass house, tell me your complete sexual history including all of the kinks you're ashamed of, and give me your email password. I thought so. Your viewpoint come across as extremely naïve until you've had political persecution, targeted harassment, or stalking issues. Privacy isn't something you or anyone else gets to decide no one else needs because you don't understand it or value it, but you're free to try living in a fantasy world so long as you don't put the lives of reporters or refugees at risk, or condone the invasion of the lives and personal effects of others.

grawprog 6y ago

>Likewise I don't care that Google knows what I searched for, or that Twitter knows what I tweeted, or that LinkedIn has my employment history. What I don't want is all of that being sold to Cambridge Analytica to then aggregate and sell on to someone else for goodness knows what purposes. This logic would be fine if all google did was search, if all amazon did was shopping, but they don't. They have federal government contracts, they work with defense contractors and law enforcement, they control huge amounts of the internet infrastructure. Google, amazon, facebook gathering your data is more than just a search engine, a store front and a social network gathering it, even if theh share it with nobody other than their internal businesess, those ternal businesses have massive control over the internet qnd many people's lives.

einpoklum 6y ago

> but that's fine because they don't conspire behind our backs to create a comprehensive record that's handed over to the government. > I don't mind if the building security records me entering the building, or the bank records me using the ATM Actually, I would pretty much bet the government in a bunch of states in the world can access your bank records. Places like the US, or China, or Russia. But let's ignore that. > What I object to is if all of those are stitched together and handed over to advertising agencies or my employer. The thing is, once the information is gathered, and stored, it's an easy transition to feed it somewhere. And judging by current trends, - some company will soon offer pay those disparate surveillers to feed such data to it, constantly - since it can processed and analyzed en masse, and monetized. Oh, and they'll probably send the government a copy of everything too (judging by what FAANG do, for example). > Likewise I don't care that Google knows what I searched for That's not "likewise". Google is already a huge stitcher of surveillance - the kind you said you disapprove of. And, again, they send everything to the US government. > that latter is mainly between me and Amazon. You mean between you and the entity controlling a huge chunk of all on-line commerce and whose operations are larger in monetary terms than most states in the world? And that acts like a government with its own body of rules and internal judicial system for disputes? ... yeah, it's "just" between you and them.

feralimal 6y ago

You're naive, sorry to say. I would think that all that data is being shared. And if its not being shared now, it is being recorded. And an AI will run through all that information and process it in the future. Why anyone would trust self-serving governments and corporations with private information amazes me! It is a perfectly rational hypothesis to consider that a lot of the reasons governments use to take civil liberties away, are ones that they orchestrated themselves to facilitate their power grab. To not consider this as a possibility, in psychological terms, is like being the co-dependent in a narcissistic relationship, or like the victim in Stockholm syndrome - you can't imagine that someone would be that abusive, even though you know already that governments and corporations do NOT have your back. All government conspiracy aside, anyone can see that one makes lots of decisions to do things (or not) on account of what it means to be in public. In your mind, contrast the idea of being in public in a busy city versus a quiet country road. You do not act in the same way! You are under greater stress in a city, you will conform with the social norms as you perceive them, you will not 'flower' as an individual. This stuff is all known. We are better managed in cities hence 'they' want to move the mass of people into 'smart' (spy) cities. Its not a secret. Its been being planned for a long time. Look into technocracy.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
simonh 6y ago
Of course it is, I even game examples of data being used in that way (Beacon and Cambridge Analytica). How can you possibly think I’m not aware of activities I cited examples of? That’s exactly the sort of thing we need to focus our efforts on stopping,

peterwoerner 6y ago

Very few people articulate the upside of the data sharing well. And that is the internet allows people to connect with the long tail customers. All of a sudden I can make friends with other worm farmers in the world. Not only that, but using this data I can effectively find other people who would probably be interested in worm farming and tell them about it. And grow the community of worm farmers. Not only that but individuals can now build niche businesses based around worm farming because they can find their potential customers. You can replace worm farming with every esoteric interest. On one hand the internet and the big data platforms of Amazon, facebook etc. have allowed this economy and communities based on esoteric interests, but on the other hand they are able to manipulate us else like nobodies business and greed ensures that if it isn't being used adversarially now it will certainly be in the future.

pjmlp 6y ago

> This is silly, we are all observed by other people almost all of our lives, but that's fine because they don't conspire behind our backs to create a comprehensive record that's handed over to the government. While I agree with most of what you say, and also almost everything from me is relatively easy to find, my parents and family experience living under Salazar´s dictatorship, or the lasting effects from Stasi over here in Germany, keeps me always aware to keep a good price in what we give away.