5 ms·

I can see addiction like unpaid debt. Just like everyone may need a bank loan (which is totally socially acceptable), sometime you may need a happiness/energy/

I can see addiction like unpaid debt. Just like everyone may need a bank loan (which is totally socially acceptable), sometime you may need a happiness/energy/relief/whatever loan. The thing is, just like a money loan, you should be ready to pay your debt after. The day you think you can run away without paying, it's where the trouble begin. This is true even with alcohol: Go to a party, drink a few glasses. One or two more. Have fun. The day after you pay it with a little (or even big) hangover. Just drink a lot of water and you will be ok. Obviously this is more difficult with some drugs. They are dangerous because they are more subtle, somehow you think you're still in charge, until it's too late and your debt is out of control. Now, I'm aware that this is quite complex, but still I wonder how many people there are out there who can self-control themself and diligently keep their debt in order. I guess, compared to "meth-heads" and other rock bottom abusers, they just don't make the news. Plus they may want to avoid a lot of social rejection.

mettamage 6y ago
I disagree with this view. I think the metaphor captures some elements of the experience, but it doesn't capture enough. A craving feeling arises to have fun. The craving exists there because it feels nice. This also implies that you feel less nice than you'd like to feel. This craving doesn't happen that often, but often enough that you're curious about taking drugs. You try cocaine. Suddenly you feel energized and amazing, this is how you always want to feel! The effect wanes after 20 minutes, you take it again and you feel amazing. You're starting to do this every weekend. Cocaine gets associated with the craving feeling for fun. After a few months, whenever you feel like your normal self, a craving feeling arises. This feeling is now a mix of wanting to have fun and wanting cocaine. The thing is, where I think the debt metaphor breaks down is that this increase in craving acts a bit different than actual debt. Many addicts feel strong cravings for years afterwards, and it only very slowly decreases. Once hooked again to the substance, it's easily back to previous all-time high levels. Psychologists claim that in conditioning processes, it's impossible to delete conditioning (called extinction). So you can never truly repay our debt. Moreover, once your craving is extinct (for as much as possible) it's really only dormant in reality. Make one wrong move and you're quickly back to rock bottom. With debt, if I pay back my debt of $50K, then splurge for another $1K, I am not back in debt with $50K. This is however how addiction works. Finally, the debt metaphor doesn't capture the uncontrollableness of cravings that are arising. You have no free will in what spontaneous thought or feeling arises. This is quite easily seen when you're sitting still and try to do nothing: your mind will still chatter away, you'll still feel things based on that chatter. In quite a few cases it's impossible what your mind will show you next. The same is true for the cravings that an addict gets with a drug. Sure, the craving will arise when one starts to talk about it, but it may also arise when somebody twitches their leg, because the muscle tension is super vaguely associated to a memory when one was partying with the drug, but the person is not even aware of that association or that it's part of a memory. Disclaimer: I'm not a drug addict, but based on my personal life experiences, I think it's fair to say that I have enough experience how it must feel like (I experience a mild pull to alcohol, a strong pull to caffeine and an overwhelming pull to videos and video games).
- achairapart 6y ago
  The description of your craving process is both fascinating and horrifying. Well, mostly horrifying. Is there a scientific name for this very process? I'm not a drug addict either, but I can relate with some of it about my cigarette smoking habit (it's actually an addiction, I know). As for the metaphor, "every weekend" looks already like an enormous amount of debt to me.
  - mettamage 6y ago
    Yea, I'm talking from the perspective of an addict or in-between addict during that sentence. From their perspective, every weekend is fine. Moreover, I know one (exactly 1) acquaintance that has done cocaine for more than 30 years every weekend and only in the weekends. So arguably he wasn't addicted, not in the psychopathological sense where he wasn't functioning in society (he was, I think he did construction work). Unfortunately, I don't know enough (anymore) on the science of craving, most of what I wrote is actually what I've noticed because of meditation and self-reflection, so it's a very subjective account. Though, what I stated about conditioning, that is scientifically proven, you can read the wiki of operant and classical conditioning. > The description of your craving process is both fascinating and horrifying. Well, mostly horrifying. In certain forms of mindfulness meditation you're asked to observe your sensations in your body. In practice this can translate to observing whatever craving you're experiencing :P Let me think a bit what areas of research might be interesting to account a bit for my subjective experience... - Wanting and Liking from Berridge's lab [1]. - Research on how to make slot machine's addictive [2] But those ideas are a bit more circumstantial I believe. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motivational_salience https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motivational_salience [2] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/247926701_Addictive_gameplay_What_casual_game_designers_can_learn_from_slot_machine_research https://www.researchgate.net/publication/247926701_Addictive...
swirepe 6y ago
I liked the way you framed drug use as temporary happiness loans. That's very insightful. >Now, I'm aware that this is quite complex, but still I wonder how many people there are out there who can self-control themself and diligently keep their debt in order. The analogy breaks down a bit here for me. Before I had a cat, I couldn't understand how people could pay so much for veterinary bills. After I got a cat, I could see myself spending more on her than I would spend on myself. Like, what's the point of having money if not to make my cat happy? My relationship to money itself changed. Self-control isn't a factor. I'm stretching this analogy, but I wonder how many drug users with their happiness debts in balance have really just reframed their happiness finances around their addiction.
- achairapart 6y ago
  There is a scene in the movie The Consequences of Love by Paolo Sorrentino where you find out one of the secrets of the mysterious leading character: The first Wednesday of every month at 10am he shot himself heroin. It's one of his extremely methodical routines. It can be seen as an habit, but you can't truly call him an addict. If you reframe your happiness around your drug use you're already addicted. The question about my original post was more like: Are there people who have a drug habit without the addiction? If yes, how many of them are there?

mettamage 6y ago

I disagree with this view. I think the metaphor captures some elements of the experience, but it doesn't capture enough. A craving feeling arises to have fun. The craving exists there because it feels nice. This also implies that you feel less nice than you'd like to feel. This craving doesn't happen that often, but often enough that you're curious about taking drugs. You try cocaine. Suddenly you feel energized and amazing, this is how you always want to feel! The effect wanes after 20 minutes, you take it again and you feel amazing. You're starting to do this every weekend. Cocaine gets associated with the craving feeling for fun. After a few months, whenever you feel like your normal self, a craving feeling arises. This feeling is now a mix of wanting to have fun and wanting cocaine. The thing is, where I think the debt metaphor breaks down is that this increase in craving acts a bit different than actual debt. Many addicts feel strong cravings for years afterwards, and it only very slowly decreases. Once hooked again to the substance, it's easily back to previous all-time high levels. Psychologists claim that in conditioning processes, it's impossible to delete conditioning (called extinction). So you can never truly repay our debt. Moreover, once your craving is extinct (for as much as possible) it's really only dormant in reality. Make one wrong move and you're quickly back to rock bottom. With debt, if I pay back my debt of $50K, then splurge for another $1K, I am not back in debt with $50K. This is however how addiction works. Finally, the debt metaphor doesn't capture the uncontrollableness of cravings that are arising. You have no free will in what spontaneous thought or feeling arises. This is quite easily seen when you're sitting still and try to do nothing: your mind will still chatter away, you'll still feel things based on that chatter. In quite a few cases it's impossible what your mind will show you next. The same is true for the cravings that an addict gets with a drug. Sure, the craving will arise when one starts to talk about it, but it may also arise when somebody twitches their leg, because the muscle tension is super vaguely associated to a memory when one was partying with the drug, but the person is not even aware of that association or that it's part of a memory. Disclaimer: I'm not a drug addict, but based on my personal life experiences, I think it's fair to say that I have enough experience how it must feel like (I experience a mild pull to alcohol, a strong pull to caffeine and an overwhelming pull to videos and video games).

achairapart 6y ago
The description of your craving process is both fascinating and horrifying. Well, mostly horrifying. Is there a scientific name for this very process? I'm not a drug addict either, but I can relate with some of it about my cigarette smoking habit (it's actually an addiction, I know). As for the metaphor, "every weekend" looks already like an enormous amount of debt to me.
- mettamage 6y ago
  Yea, I'm talking from the perspective of an addict or in-between addict during that sentence. From their perspective, every weekend is fine. Moreover, I know one (exactly 1) acquaintance that has done cocaine for more than 30 years every weekend and only in the weekends. So arguably he wasn't addicted, not in the psychopathological sense where he wasn't functioning in society (he was, I think he did construction work). Unfortunately, I don't know enough (anymore) on the science of craving, most of what I wrote is actually what I've noticed because of meditation and self-reflection, so it's a very subjective account. Though, what I stated about conditioning, that is scientifically proven, you can read the wiki of operant and classical conditioning. > The description of your craving process is both fascinating and horrifying. Well, mostly horrifying. In certain forms of mindfulness meditation you're asked to observe your sensations in your body. In practice this can translate to observing whatever craving you're experiencing :P Let me think a bit what areas of research might be interesting to account a bit for my subjective experience... - Wanting and Liking from Berridge's lab [1]. - Research on how to make slot machine's addictive [2] But those ideas are a bit more circumstantial I believe. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motivational_salience https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motivational_salience [2] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/247926701_Addictive_gameplay_What_casual_game_designers_can_learn_from_slot_machine_research https://www.researchgate.net/publication/247926701_Addictive...

swirepe 6y ago

I liked the way you framed drug use as temporary happiness loans. That's very insightful. >Now, I'm aware that this is quite complex, but still I wonder how many people there are out there who can self-control themself and diligently keep their debt in order. The analogy breaks down a bit here for me. Before I had a cat, I couldn't understand how people could pay so much for veterinary bills. After I got a cat, I could see myself spending more on her than I would spend on myself. Like, what's the point of having money if not to make my cat happy? My relationship to money itself changed. Self-control isn't a factor. I'm stretching this analogy, but I wonder how many drug users with their happiness debts in balance have really just reframed their happiness finances around their addiction.

achairapart 6y ago
There is a scene in the movie The Consequences of Love by Paolo Sorrentino where you find out one of the secrets of the mysterious leading character: The first Wednesday of every month at 10am he shot himself heroin. It's one of his extremely methodical routines. It can be seen as an habit, but you can't truly call him an addict. If you reframe your happiness around your drug use you're already addicted. The question about my original post was more like: Are there people who have a drug habit without the addiction? If yes, how many of them are there?