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I agree that an incentive structure is probably needed as a matter of practice (since few people will want to do extra work with zero upside), but I wouldn't ca

I agree that an incentive structure is probably needed as a matter of practice (since few people will want to do extra work with zero upside), but I wouldn't call it exploitative. You're an employee, you work for a guaranteed salary now in return for someone else shouldering the risk. That's the nature of the deal. If you want to share in the upside, you have to share the risk. It's not like anyone's being forced to do this extra work (unlike, say, game dev, which is exploitative). It's just an option for people who want to tackle interesting projects.

jlangenauer 6y ago
Reward being tied to risk is only for the little people. One can point at numberous executive compensation packages where they have plenty of exposure to upside, and almost no risk (or even negative risk: a golden parachute if you get pushed out).
RHSeeger 6y ago
But the company isn't shouldering all the cost/risk. > I realized that to get it to actually ship I had to sacrifice nights and weekends. If you have to work nights and weekends, but get none of the benefits for it, you might as well work nights and weekends on your _own_ side project.
- JumpCrisscross 6y ago
  > the company isn't shouldering all the cost/risk It’s paying your salary. Not having a salary, or having a lower and/or unreliable one, is part of the risk of a start-up. > you might as well work nights and weekends on your _own_ side project Nights and weekends plus working days. Not just nights and weekends. Start-up means all in. Hobby means just nights and week-ends.
  - RHSeeger 6y ago
    We're talking past each other here, so I'll try to simplify where I'm coming from... It is exploitative by the company to expect you to work nights and weekends, but then all the possible benefits go to the company. If you're going to do work on your nights and weekends, then do work for yourself, not for a company that won't compensate you for it. The above has nothing to do with whether or not it's like a startup; it's speaking only to the deal in question being exploitative. (Side note: I don't have a problem working some nights and the occasional weekend for my job. But it's very rarely expected of me; it tends to happen when I make a commitment to delivering something in a certain timeframe and then it turns out my guess as to how long it would take was wrong. Because I'm flexible, so is my company; if I need to take a half day to help my daughter with something, nobody is going to push back on that. I just wanted to make it clear that I don't consider the occasional night/weekend exploitative automatically... just that the situation described by the OP appeared to be so.)
    - JumpCrisscross 6y ago
      > It is exploitative by the company to expect you to work nights and weekends, but then all the possible benefits go to the company We’re disagreeing, not talking past each other. (Which is fine!) Above-market salaries, bonuses and the promise of promotion (within the company or without) are fair compensation for aggressive work expectations. The upside is sharply capped in comparison with start-ups. But the downside has been practically eliminated. Nobody bemoans investment bankers, who have largely this compensation model.
      - RHSeeger 6y ago
        My understanding was that this person's normal job did not include working nights and weekends. It was the act of taking on the "company side project" that necessitated that extra work. If the person's job includes working nights and weekend and compensates fairly for it, and they have the option of working on an official side project _instead_ of their normal work, then I agree with your analysis of the situation. If the person's job does not normally include nights and weekends, and they are compensated based on that, and adding the official side project to their work adds this time with no added benefit, then the company is being exploitative. At the high level... - if the side project can be done instead of your normal work, all good - if the side project is done in addition to your normal work, with no additional compensation, then it's exploitative.
- throwaway744678 6y ago
  The (implied) benefits you get is that you can work on interesting things, and probably get much more freedom in your day job. Looks very fine to me if done on a voluntary basis.
kmonsen 6y ago
Sure, in that sense it’s “fair”. It’s also meaningless, as this example shows most people will not make a really great product if there is no upside for them so they will mail it in. So sure you can try to squeeze your employees but maybe if you gave them some more you would get a smaller percentage of a much bigger pie giving a win win. It’s very unlikely big corporations can do that for the precedence it sets.

jlangenauer 6y ago

Reward being tied to risk is only for the little people. One can point at numberous executive compensation packages where they have plenty of exposure to upside, and almost no risk (or even negative risk: a golden parachute if you get pushed out).

RHSeeger 6y ago

But the company isn't shouldering all the cost/risk. > I realized that to get it to actually ship I had to sacrifice nights and weekends. If you have to work nights and weekends, but get none of the benefits for it, you might as well work nights and weekends on your _own_ side project.

JumpCrisscross 6y ago
> the company isn't shouldering all the cost/risk It’s paying your salary. Not having a salary, or having a lower and/or unreliable one, is part of the risk of a start-up. > you might as well work nights and weekends on your _own_ side project Nights and weekends plus working days. Not just nights and weekends. Start-up means all in. Hobby means just nights and week-ends.
- RHSeeger 6y ago
  We're talking past each other here, so I'll try to simplify where I'm coming from... It is exploitative by the company to expect you to work nights and weekends, but then all the possible benefits go to the company. If you're going to do work on your nights and weekends, then do work for yourself, not for a company that won't compensate you for it. The above has nothing to do with whether or not it's like a startup; it's speaking only to the deal in question being exploitative. (Side note: I don't have a problem working some nights and the occasional weekend for my job. But it's very rarely expected of me; it tends to happen when I make a commitment to delivering something in a certain timeframe and then it turns out my guess as to how long it would take was wrong. Because I'm flexible, so is my company; if I need to take a half day to help my daughter with something, nobody is going to push back on that. I just wanted to make it clear that I don't consider the occasional night/weekend exploitative automatically... just that the situation described by the OP appeared to be so.)
  - JumpCrisscross 6y ago
    > It is exploitative by the company to expect you to work nights and weekends, but then all the possible benefits go to the company We’re disagreeing, not talking past each other. (Which is fine!) Above-market salaries, bonuses and the promise of promotion (within the company or without) are fair compensation for aggressive work expectations. The upside is sharply capped in comparison with start-ups. But the downside has been practically eliminated. Nobody bemoans investment bankers, who have largely this compensation model.
    - RHSeeger 6y ago
      My understanding was that this person's normal job did not include working nights and weekends. It was the act of taking on the "company side project" that necessitated that extra work. If the person's job includes working nights and weekend and compensates fairly for it, and they have the option of working on an official side project _instead_ of their normal work, then I agree with your analysis of the situation. If the person's job does not normally include nights and weekends, and they are compensated based on that, and adding the official side project to their work adds this time with no added benefit, then the company is being exploitative. At the high level... - if the side project can be done instead of your normal work, all good - if the side project is done in addition to your normal work, with no additional compensation, then it's exploitative.
throwaway744678 6y ago
The (implied) benefits you get is that you can work on interesting things, and probably get much more freedom in your day job. Looks very fine to me if done on a voluntary basis.

kmonsen 6y ago

Sure, in that sense it’s “fair”. It’s also meaningless, as this example shows most people will not make a really great product if there is no upside for them so they will mail it in. So sure you can try to squeeze your employees but maybe if you gave them some more you would get a smaller percentage of a much bigger pie giving a win win. It’s very unlikely big corporations can do that for the precedence it sets.