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While I worked for Adobe, one of the executives there (Mark Randall, serial entrepreneur that was "acquired" by the company, awesome guy) launched the "Red box"

While I worked for Adobe, one of the executives there (Mark Randall, serial entrepreneur that was "acquired" by the company, awesome guy) launched the "Red box" initiative that eventually become https://www.kickbox.org/ https://www.kickbox.org/. The red box was essentially a "toolbox" that he created on how to build a startup (set of training materials + $1000USD credit card that you could use however you wish), and the purpose was to get enough proof so that you get executive buy-in to continue your idea - if you achieved that, you got the "blue box" (whose content was a "secret" but was essentially custom-tailored support for your project). The entire process banks on the fact that you validate your ideas _without_ involving the Adobe brand, because if you slapped "Adobe" over it of course people and press would get interested. There were some legal caveats here and there (e.g. you couldn't outright lie and claim you were _not_ with Adobe), but I think it is to some extent the closest thing that you can get to "startup within a big company". I personally got to the blue box - but then I gave up, when I realized that to get it to actually ship I had to sacrifice nights and weekends. Which would have been maybe fine - except that I knew that I didn't get to keep any upside. I had most of the risks of a startup, but very little of the payoff. Great learning process, but for me - it only managed to convince me that I shouldn't try within a corporation, if I want to try I need to actually do it by myself.

simonebrunozzi 6y ago
Super interesting. Would you mind sharing more about it?
- virgilp 6y ago
  I wouldn't mind, but I don't know what - ask if you have specific questions. There's ample material on https://kickbox.org https://kickbox.org and https://home.getkickbox.com/ https://home.getkickbox.com/ (basically all the contents of the red box, minus the cash), plus it appears one even has access to a "kickbox community" from what I can tell.
aloer 6y ago
Is the expectation with the kickbox that you work on your idea in your own time or was there a process to work on it during work hours as well?
- virgilp 6y ago
  Basically, you work it out with your managers/ organization. Getting the resources to do the product is part of the challenge.
- thinkmassive 6y ago
  In the link[1] virgilp shared it says red box participants get 1000 CHF budget, 20% of working time, and access to experts. So they want you to prove out your idea with an allocation of one workday per week. I’d bet most people have to add their own nights and weekends to make it successful. 1: https://home.getkickbox.com/ https://home.getkickbox.com/
  - virgilp 6y ago
    Do note that they appear to have fine-tuned the program. I was one of the early participants - initially the blue box was a "secret" because Mark Randall genuinely didn't know what to put in it. In the meanwhile, the blue box was refined and it appears that a gold box turned up. True to his form, he approached the entire process as an MVP that was evolved & enhanced in time.
gifnamething 6y ago
>I knew that I didn't get to keep any upside That does partially answer what is not in the blue box.
taneq 6y ago
> I didn't get to keep any upside. I had most of the risks of a startup, but very little of the payoff. That sounds super exploitative tbh. Using people’s passion and naivety to give you free moonshots.
- nmfisher 6y ago
  I agree that an incentive structure is probably needed as a matter of practice (since few people will want to do extra work with zero upside), but I wouldn't call it exploitative. You're an employee, you work for a guaranteed salary now in return for someone else shouldering the risk. That's the nature of the deal. If you want to share in the upside, you have to share the risk. It's not like anyone's being forced to do this extra work (unlike, say, game dev, which is exploitative). It's just an option for people who want to tackle interesting projects.
  - jlangenauer 6y ago
    Reward being tied to risk is only for the little people. One can point at numberous executive compensation packages where they have plenty of exposure to upside, and almost no risk (or even negative risk: a golden parachute if you get pushed out).
  - RHSeeger 6y ago
    But the company isn't shouldering all the cost/risk. > I realized that to get it to actually ship I had to sacrifice nights and weekends. If you have to work nights and weekends, but get none of the benefits for it, you might as well work nights and weekends on your _own_ side project.
    - JumpCrisscross 6y ago
      > the company isn't shouldering all the cost/risk It’s paying your salary. Not having a salary, or having a lower and/or unreliable one, is part of the risk of a start-up. > you might as well work nights and weekends on your _own_ side project Nights and weekends plus working days. Not just nights and weekends. Start-up means all in. Hobby means just nights and week-ends.
spaetzleesser 6y ago
“except that I knew that I didn't get to keep any upside. L Same at my company. They have similar programs but you also don’t get any stake in the outcome and are still controlled by executives who in the end get the credit. Same for hackathons they tried to organize. The idea quickly turned from fun projects basically into overtime to check off Jura tickets quickly but with the addition of free pizza. I think leadership in big companies is almost by definition very controlling. They simply can’t let go. It’s against the instincts that got them into their positions.
- cambalache 6y ago
  It is astounding to me how smart, conscientious adults can be manipulated with kindergarten-level tactics. I dont know if psychopathy (or the whole dark triad?) can be quantitatively measured but I would not be surprised in the least if after the mean value, any % of incremental in psychopathy is way better than its equivalent in IQ to survive and thrive in the corporate world.
- vmception 6y ago
  Pretty much all company hackathons are just tech debt day At startups and big companies
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - p1necone 6y ago
    If they were honest and called it a "beat down tech debt day" I would probably be keen for that. I am easily swayed by free pizza, and I love cleaning up hard to understand/bug prone code.
  - driverdan 6y ago
    That's not necessarily bad so long as everyone is honest about it. Often tech debt and bugs don't get fixed because there isn't enough time or they don't generate revenue. But we developers hate tech debt and bugs. Dedicating a chunk of time specifically fixing these issues that we hate can result in good outcomes.

simonebrunozzi 6y ago

Super interesting. Would you mind sharing more about it?

virgilp 6y ago
I wouldn't mind, but I don't know what - ask if you have specific questions. There's ample material on https://kickbox.org https://kickbox.org and https://home.getkickbox.com/ https://home.getkickbox.com/ (basically all the contents of the red box, minus the cash), plus it appears one even has access to a "kickbox community" from what I can tell.

aloer 6y ago

Is the expectation with the kickbox that you work on your idea in your own time or was there a process to work on it during work hours as well?

virgilp 6y ago
Basically, you work it out with your managers/ organization. Getting the resources to do the product is part of the challenge.
thinkmassive 6y ago
In the link[1] virgilp shared it says red box participants get 1000 CHF budget, 20% of working time, and access to experts. So they want you to prove out your idea with an allocation of one workday per week. I’d bet most people have to add their own nights and weekends to make it successful. 1: https://home.getkickbox.com/ https://home.getkickbox.com/
- virgilp 6y ago
  Do note that they appear to have fine-tuned the program. I was one of the early participants - initially the blue box was a "secret" because Mark Randall genuinely didn't know what to put in it. In the meanwhile, the blue box was refined and it appears that a gold box turned up. True to his form, he approached the entire process as an MVP that was evolved & enhanced in time.

gifnamething 6y ago

>I knew that I didn't get to keep any upside That does partially answer what is not in the blue box.

taneq 6y ago

> I didn't get to keep any upside. I had most of the risks of a startup, but very little of the payoff. That sounds super exploitative tbh. Using people’s passion and naivety to give you free moonshots.

nmfisher 6y ago
I agree that an incentive structure is probably needed as a matter of practice (since few people will want to do extra work with zero upside), but I wouldn't call it exploitative. You're an employee, you work for a guaranteed salary now in return for someone else shouldering the risk. That's the nature of the deal. If you want to share in the upside, you have to share the risk. It's not like anyone's being forced to do this extra work (unlike, say, game dev, which is exploitative). It's just an option for people who want to tackle interesting projects.
- jlangenauer 6y ago
  Reward being tied to risk is only for the little people. One can point at numberous executive compensation packages where they have plenty of exposure to upside, and almost no risk (or even negative risk: a golden parachute if you get pushed out).
- RHSeeger 6y ago
  But the company isn't shouldering all the cost/risk. > I realized that to get it to actually ship I had to sacrifice nights and weekends. If you have to work nights and weekends, but get none of the benefits for it, you might as well work nights and weekends on your _own_ side project.
  - JumpCrisscross 6y ago
    > the company isn't shouldering all the cost/risk It’s paying your salary. Not having a salary, or having a lower and/or unreliable one, is part of the risk of a start-up. > you might as well work nights and weekends on your _own_ side project Nights and weekends plus working days. Not just nights and weekends. Start-up means all in. Hobby means just nights and week-ends.

spaetzleesser 6y ago

“except that I knew that I didn't get to keep any upside. L Same at my company. They have similar programs but you also don’t get any stake in the outcome and are still controlled by executives who in the end get the credit. Same for hackathons they tried to organize. The idea quickly turned from fun projects basically into overtime to check off Jura tickets quickly but with the addition of free pizza. I think leadership in big companies is almost by definition very controlling. They simply can’t let go. It’s against the instincts that got them into their positions.

cambalache 6y ago
It is astounding to me how smart, conscientious adults can be manipulated with kindergarten-level tactics. I dont know if psychopathy (or the whole dark triad?) can be quantitatively measured but I would not be surprised in the least if after the mean value, any % of incremental in psychopathy is way better than its equivalent in IQ to survive and thrive in the corporate world.
vmception 6y ago
Pretty much all company hackathons are just tech debt day At startups and big companies
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- p1necone 6y ago
  If they were honest and called it a "beat down tech debt day" I would probably be keen for that. I am easily swayed by free pizza, and I love cleaning up hard to understand/bug prone code.
- driverdan 6y ago
  That's not necessarily bad so long as everyone is honest about it. Often tech debt and bugs don't get fixed because there isn't enough time or they don't generate revenue. But we developers hate tech debt and bugs. Dedicating a chunk of time specifically fixing these issues that we hate can result in good outcomes.