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He's missing the point. College isn't entirely about learning things in the classroom, it's four years where young, hopefully creative people get to have almos

by blhack 15y ago

He's missing the point. College isn't entirely about learning things in the classroom, it's four years where young, hopefully creative people get to have almost nothing to do but think and create. The overwhelming majority of people in the world don't get to work in cool offices, on cool problems, with cool co-workers who want to solve difficult problems with them. The majority of us spend our days under fluorescent lights working on mundane business-intelligence type things. Not to say that creativity cannot be found in anything, but sitting in my dorm hacking until all hours of the morning because I didn't really have to go to class is certainly more conducive to creativity than working an 8:00-6:00 and going to bed at 10:00 because I have to be up in the morning. While college might not really offer much in the way of knowledge acquisition (at least until grad school), it would does offer the time to work on things you're passionate about, and network with other people of similar inclinations. I dropped out of college when I was 19, and it was one of the dumbest things I've ever done. For somebody who is already a member of the silicon valley set, this might be good advice, for everybody else this train of thought is parasitic. (I'm not saying that networking and hacking and soforth isn't possible when you're working a "real" job [hell, I spend almost every waking second I'm not spending at my job hacking and writing and networking], I'm just saying that college is a better environment for it)

narkuok 15y ago
Part of the problem with college is that it doesn't do a very good job of preparing students to go to work. The value prop for companies is that colleges sorts students, so the best companies can take the best graduates. Part of the problem is that the sorting is broken - the "best" students according to the university aren't the best workers. And the process of college isn't very helpful. As far as software engineers are concerned, students need to do 2 years of pro work before producing decent code. Yes, 2 years. It is a difficult, painful process for the worker, but the results are fantastic. College is great preparation for grad school, which is great preparation for a teaching job. The system serves itself very well, thank you.
- jseliger 15y ago
  "Part of the problem with college is that it doesn't do a very good job of preparing students to go to work." Depends on what you mean by "work" and what you think the purpose of college is. That's one point of Louis Menand's recent article, "Debating the Value of College": http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/atlarge/2011/06/06/110606crat_atlarge_menand http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/atlarge/2011/06/06/110... and his book, The Marketplace of Ideas: http://jseliger.com/2010/01/21/problems-in-the-academy-louis-menands-the-marketplace-of-ideas-reform-and-resistance-in-the-american-university/ http://jseliger.com/2010/01/21/problems-in-the-academy-louis... . Should college prepare people for work, or for general kinds of abstract thinking? At the moment, colleges do both (and neither). The other big problem I see is that the word "college" can now mean so many things in so many places that it's hard to compare them. Does a random community college have much to do with a four-year party school, an Ivy-League school, a Midwestern technical school, or a Cal State school filled with first generation students? Probably not. And even if college only filters students ("Theory one" in Menand's article), it does still serve some kind of signaling function. As you note, "As far as software engineers are concerned, students need to do 2 years of pro work before producing decent code. Yes, 2 years. It is a difficult, painful process for the worker, but the results are fantastic." But most programming jobs do still appear to require a college degree. There's probably a reason for that: even if it is too low a bar, it is still a bar that not everyone can hurdle. People capable enough to be self-taught can hurdle it and, ideally, learn more; those not capable enough can't accomplish even that.
jerf 15y ago
What on Earth college are you talking about? "Almost nothing to do but think and create?" This isn't a commune, it's a school. There's coursework and homework and studying and some extracurricular activities, and once you're done with all that I suppose you can "think and create", but nowhere and nohow is that the goal or reality of college, except maybe a visual arts college. If your college left you with nothing but "time to think and create", dropping out was absolutely the right choice! The entire point (until PhD studies) is that you should be learning and doing things according to some curriculum; if you're not there for the curriculum, what are you doing there at all?
- tybris 15y ago
  University exposed me to a broad array of topics in my field. It allowed me to explore my interests and specialize in a particular area. It gave me the opportunity to hack, tinker, discuss with my peers, get to know the literature, gain discipline and control over my life, build a basic network, learn the craft from professors, learn to write, find information, think about how to build a business, design systems in my mind, etc. All without the distractions of a job.
- blhack 15y ago
  Have you spent any time in a college in the last 10 years?

by blhack 15y ago

narkuok 15y ago

Part of the problem with college is that it doesn't do a very good job of preparing students to go to work. The value prop for companies is that colleges sorts students, so the best companies can take the best graduates. Part of the problem is that the sorting is broken - the "best" students according to the university aren't the best workers. And the process of college isn't very helpful. As far as software engineers are concerned, students need to do 2 years of pro work before producing decent code. Yes, 2 years. It is a difficult, painful process for the worker, but the results are fantastic. College is great preparation for grad school, which is great preparation for a teaching job. The system serves itself very well, thank you.

jseliger 15y ago
"Part of the problem with college is that it doesn't do a very good job of preparing students to go to work." Depends on what you mean by "work" and what you think the purpose of college is. That's one point of Louis Menand's recent article, "Debating the Value of College": http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/atlarge/2011/06/06/110606crat_atlarge_menand http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/atlarge/2011/06/06/110... and his book, The Marketplace of Ideas: http://jseliger.com/2010/01/21/problems-in-the-academy-louis-menands-the-marketplace-of-ideas-reform-and-resistance-in-the-american-university/ http://jseliger.com/2010/01/21/problems-in-the-academy-louis... . Should college prepare people for work, or for general kinds of abstract thinking? At the moment, colleges do both (and neither). The other big problem I see is that the word "college" can now mean so many things in so many places that it's hard to compare them. Does a random community college have much to do with a four-year party school, an Ivy-League school, a Midwestern technical school, or a Cal State school filled with first generation students? Probably not. And even if college only filters students ("Theory one" in Menand's article), it does still serve some kind of signaling function. As you note, "As far as software engineers are concerned, students need to do 2 years of pro work before producing decent code. Yes, 2 years. It is a difficult, painful process for the worker, but the results are fantastic." But most programming jobs do still appear to require a college degree. There's probably a reason for that: even if it is too low a bar, it is still a bar that not everyone can hurdle. People capable enough to be self-taught can hurdle it and, ideally, learn more; those not capable enough can't accomplish even that.

jerf 15y ago

What on Earth college are you talking about? "Almost nothing to do but think and create?" This isn't a commune, it's a school. There's coursework and homework and studying and some extracurricular activities, and once you're done with all that I suppose you can "think and create", but nowhere and nohow is that the goal or reality of college, except maybe a visual arts college. If your college left you with nothing but "time to think and create", dropping out was absolutely the right choice! The entire point (until PhD studies) is that you should be learning and doing things according to some curriculum; if you're not there for the curriculum, what are you doing there at all?

tybris 15y ago
University exposed me to a broad array of topics in my field. It allowed me to explore my interests and specialize in a particular area. It gave me the opportunity to hack, tinker, discuss with my peers, get to know the literature, gain discipline and control over my life, build a basic network, learn the craft from professors, learn to write, find information, think about how to build a business, design systems in my mind, etc. All without the distractions of a job.
blhack 15y ago
Have you spent any time in a college in the last 10 years?