9 ms·

> they want to persuade me to hold a set of opinions Glad more people are realizing this. It's harder to spot/acknowledge for people on the left since the bias

by jb775 6y ago

> they want to persuade me to hold a set of opinions Glad more people are realizing this. It's harder to spot/acknowledge for people on the left since the biased coverage feeds into their worldview...in my opinion it's artificially solidified their confidence on how "correct" they feel they are about political topics. The next step in this realization is nothing to do with one-sided reporting, it's the massive scale of what selectively gets ignored or hidden.

knorker 6y ago
The right don't have agenda-pushing affect their world view? Huh? There was recently an attempted insurrection based on fake news, you know. I must say though that Fox News has gotten downright rational (on all things) since then. Politically biased, sure, but they're actually news lately.
- thinkingemote 6y ago
  the comment you replied to didn't comment about the right, but that bias is "harder to spot/acknowledge for people on the left" The implied reverse therefore would be that it's easier for people on the right to see bias in the media. Not that the right dont have bias.
  - knorker 6y ago
    > The implied reverse therefore would be that it's easier for people on the right to see bias in the media. Yeah, that's also what I read. And as evidence to the contrary I pointed out that some people had their world view changed so much that they tried to overthrow the government. Which tells me that they didn't see the agenda they were being pushed. Which contradicts the comment's point. Note that in no way do I disagree that the left has a problem too.
    - Shivetya 6y ago
      Nah, those people just needed an excuse, they were already past the tipping point. They exist on both sides and one side got called out for attacking the capitol while the other is "mostly peaceful protests" because they are only destroying police and private property. As in, both sides are equally bad for similar but different reasons but we only hear about a singular event that some whack jobs on the far right pulled off. Compare to my local media as an example which buried the story about the violence around a "citizen" road block until a seven year old was murdered as her family tried to go past. Even then it was buried with stories of police violence or right wing threats. No, those of us who lean to the right know the nut jobs and there that line begins but there where that line is for my left leaning friends is beyond me to understand.
      - knorker 6y ago
        > but we only hear about a singular event that some whack jobs on the far right pulled off. Really? I would invite you to foxnews.com. As an example for the last week the front page has been plasted with Cuomo. And CHAZ? A complete disaster that was absolutely not a secret. You say that the line is clear on the right, but I think it's just that it's clear to you. The fake news that the election was stolen is actually mainstream, on the right. Trump had some ordinary people injest bleach, you don't think many more believed the other lies? Do you think most people on the left supported the 2020 summer riots? Or defund the police? Even polling of black people had a huge majority against that nonsense. Some do. But then some on the right think Biden's about to be arrested when trump returns with the military in two weeks. My point is that "especially on the left" has no connection in reality. "Also on the left" does.
      - edmundsauto 6y ago
        Maybe I'm just a blind leftie, but I think one side got called out for attacking the capital because that's what they did. And the other side had thousands of protests, 90+% of which were completely peaceful. Granted, it's a small sample size of on the insurrection side, but 100% violent, versus < 10% violent.
- asxd 6y ago
  I don’t think any of the parent commenters were trying to say this phenomena didn’t happen on the right as well. Obviously we’ve seen a huge swell of right wing media trying to coerce the viewer into a certain set of opinions. If anything that’s all the more reason to be very mindful of the same effect occurring in other media publications.
  - knorker 6y ago
    The quote "It's harder to spot/acknowledge for people on the left" sounds to me like patronizing "I'm simply right, whereas you are fooled by your media". It shows a strong assumption that while that commenter is able to see the difference between bias and misinformation, the left cannot. And I don't buy it. Neither people who watch Fox News nor people who watch NBC News buy it hook line and sinker. So considering there was an attempted coup, and that many people still believe the election was rigged and that trump will come back in power (arresting biden) in the beginning of March doesn't exactly speak well for the "especially on the left".
    - atonse 6y ago
      Although my side (the left) often says things like “reality has a left leaning bias” And it’s totally true when you’re countering the real charlatans of the right like Tom Cotton or Ted Cruz (to focus on American politics) But not a valid blanket statement whatsoever.
      - Person5478 6y ago
        What's hilarious about this is that Thomas Sowell says basically the opposite. He became a conservative because the leftist ideals (which are socialist and marxist in nature) feel good but reality simply doesn't work that way.
- CivBase 6y ago
  > I must say though that Fox News has gotten downright rational (on all things) since then. Politically biased, sure, but they're actually news lately. I've noticed that national news outlets in the US tend to be better when their preferred party is in power and worse when the opposition is in power. I suspect it's because in the latter case the news outlets slant all of their coverage towards negativity and discrediting the opposition. I thought CNN was much more tolerable during the Obama administration, but watching them over the last few years has consistently left my frustrated. Meanwhile, the reverse has been true for Fox News. That said, I don't consume much from either outlet.
  - knorker 6y ago
    Maybe trump is an outlier, but (at least up until the election) I found Fox News to be completely bananas the last four years. So far they've been better under biden than trump. But yes, they were bananas under obama too.
- losvedir 6y ago
  No, you misunderstand. The comment asserts that the NYTimes, specifically, is biased, and this bias is harder for people on the left to see, because it aligns with their sensibilities. Meanwhile, it's easy for people on the right to see it. The comment doesn't say anything about people on the right being immune to it (and I would suspect there's a similar effect there in reverse, for eg Fox News).
- chmod600 6y ago
  I wasn't subscribed to any publications on the right (though in addition to the left-leaning publications I already mentioned, I was previously a WSJ subscriber once and an Economist subscriber a few times) so there wasn't anything to unsibscribe from. I don't see misbehavior on the right as a justification for lazy, manipulative groupthink by the NYT, or outright bullying. Especially when they are clearly capable of good reporting.
Fuzzwah 6y ago
I'm an outsider to US politics (in that I'm Australian), but I'm really interested to know what widely held "left" views you think are "incorrect"? The topics I understand as being pushed by the left in the US just seem so centerist to me, based on the political landscape that I'm living in. Single payer health care, minimum wage increases, increases in social support nets... So many topics I'd love to hear the argument against from any stand point that isn't pure capitalist greed.
- PoignardAzur 6y ago
  The minimum wage increase that Biden is pushing for is radical. He wants a 15$/hour minimum wage, which if I believe Wikipedia would be the highest minimum wage in the world right now. Not saying that's a bad thing, but I think it would qualify as left-wing in most countries. Agreed about social safety nets and most other policies. Sometimes it feels Americans don't realize how uniquely chaotic and inefficient their system is, compared to every other western country. The healthcare system in particular.
  - ansible 6y ago
    Eh, it isn't that radical. These people making minimum wage are likely working part-time, so they don't get medical insurance. They often have to find two or more part-time jobs. Do they are working more hours than a full time job, but still don't have medical. An increase in the minimum wage will help a little, but having affordable health care works help more.
  - 542354234235 6y ago
    > would be the highest minimum wage in the world right now. Australia's minimum wage for people over 21 is over $15 USD for full time work, and over $19 USD for part time (you receive a 25% casual loading rate increase for part time work). [1] That comes out to about 70% of their GDP per capita (working 38 hours per week, 50 weeks a year). The US going to $15 an hour would only be 43% of GDP per capita. If the US paid its minimum wage workers according to our actual economic output per person, our minimum wage would be $24 an hour, to match Australia. I wouldn’t really call $15 an hour radical. [1] https://blog.aigroup.com.au/australia-had-the-highest-minimum-wage-in-the-world-in-2019/ https://blog.aigroup.com.au/australia-had-the-highest-minimu...
polote 6y ago
The pandemic made me realize how much newspapers have impact on people opinions. If they keep telling a vaccine in unsafe, a big part of their readers will believe the vaccine is unsafe. If they keep telling a vaccine is safe a big part of their readers will believe the vaccine is safe. And that no matter what the reality is. I'm not american but reading NYT during the elections, I was astonished by how much NYT was blaming Trump for everything, and never say anything positive about him. Now I treat newspapers as propaganda. I actually stopped reading any news at all except bloomberg a month ago and can't be happier.
- wycy 6y ago
  > I was astonished by how much NYT was blaming Trump for everything The guy was calling the whole thing a hoax, I don't know what credit he should get for anything.
  - hn8788 6y ago
    That was already debunked, but thanks for being an example of people believing whatever narrative the media pushes.
    - wycy 6y ago
      I've seen, with my own eyes, plenty of his tweets and videos of him saying it was a hoax, so debunk it for me.
      - yostrovs 6y ago
        You think you've seen videos and tweets. But you really haven't. There was one incident that came close: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-coronavirus-rally-remark/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-coronavirus-rally-re...
        wycy 6y ago
        The Snopes article was published 2 weeks before the impacts of coronavirus even started to be felt in this country, back when he was privately telling the truth about it to Woodward. Trump's base overwhelmingly believes it's a hoax. So is "left" wing media lying to me that he says it's a hoax, or is right wing media lying to all his supporters that it's a hoax?
Shacklz 6y ago
As a regular European reader of the NYT, even the stronger left leaning columns from people such as Krugman/Kristof contain mostly opinions that are often considered "common sense" on our side of the pond. Maybe your opinion has more to do with how weird and dispatched from reality American politics has become and less with how the NYT wants to brainwash you, or whatever you think they're doing?
- elefanten 6y ago
  Interested to know what you’re referring to. If it’s social or economic policy, I’d get your view. But if it’s culture wars / identity politics you’re referring to, I’d be surprised and expect the opposite in Europe. My sense is many (most?) of the commenters here are off-put by the latter category. Edit: the reference to Krugman as significantly “left” just registered, and I don’t think that’s what people are referring to —- or even that most of NYT’s new guard would consider Krugman to be a leftist
- goatinaboat 6y ago
  mostly opinions that are often considered "common sense" on our side of the pond. The NYT’s views on race relations are so far from normal Europeans that Macron called them an existential threat to France.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

by jb775 6y ago

knorker 6y ago

The right don't have agenda-pushing affect their world view? Huh? There was recently an attempted insurrection based on fake news, you know. I must say though that Fox News has gotten downright rational (on all things) since then. Politically biased, sure, but they're actually news lately.

thinkingemote 6y ago
the comment you replied to didn't comment about the right, but that bias is "harder to spot/acknowledge for people on the left" The implied reverse therefore would be that it's easier for people on the right to see bias in the media. Not that the right dont have bias.
- knorker 6y ago
  > The implied reverse therefore would be that it's easier for people on the right to see bias in the media. Yeah, that's also what I read. And as evidence to the contrary I pointed out that some people had their world view changed so much that they tried to overthrow the government. Which tells me that they didn't see the agenda they were being pushed. Which contradicts the comment's point. Note that in no way do I disagree that the left has a problem too.
  - Shivetya 6y ago
    Nah, those people just needed an excuse, they were already past the tipping point. They exist on both sides and one side got called out for attacking the capitol while the other is "mostly peaceful protests" because they are only destroying police and private property. As in, both sides are equally bad for similar but different reasons but we only hear about a singular event that some whack jobs on the far right pulled off. Compare to my local media as an example which buried the story about the violence around a "citizen" road block until a seven year old was murdered as her family tried to go past. Even then it was buried with stories of police violence or right wing threats. No, those of us who lean to the right know the nut jobs and there that line begins but there where that line is for my left leaning friends is beyond me to understand.
    - knorker 6y ago
      > but we only hear about a singular event that some whack jobs on the far right pulled off. Really? I would invite you to foxnews.com. As an example for the last week the front page has been plasted with Cuomo. And CHAZ? A complete disaster that was absolutely not a secret. You say that the line is clear on the right, but I think it's just that it's clear to you. The fake news that the election was stolen is actually mainstream, on the right. Trump had some ordinary people injest bleach, you don't think many more believed the other lies? Do you think most people on the left supported the 2020 summer riots? Or defund the police? Even polling of black people had a huge majority against that nonsense. Some do. But then some on the right think Biden's about to be arrested when trump returns with the military in two weeks. My point is that "especially on the left" has no connection in reality. "Also on the left" does.
    - edmundsauto 6y ago
      Maybe I'm just a blind leftie, but I think one side got called out for attacking the capital because that's what they did. And the other side had thousands of protests, 90+% of which were completely peaceful. Granted, it's a small sample size of on the insurrection side, but 100% violent, versus < 10% violent.
asxd 6y ago
I don’t think any of the parent commenters were trying to say this phenomena didn’t happen on the right as well. Obviously we’ve seen a huge swell of right wing media trying to coerce the viewer into a certain set of opinions. If anything that’s all the more reason to be very mindful of the same effect occurring in other media publications.
- knorker 6y ago
  The quote "It's harder to spot/acknowledge for people on the left" sounds to me like patronizing "I'm simply right, whereas you are fooled by your media". It shows a strong assumption that while that commenter is able to see the difference between bias and misinformation, the left cannot. And I don't buy it. Neither people who watch Fox News nor people who watch NBC News buy it hook line and sinker. So considering there was an attempted coup, and that many people still believe the election was rigged and that trump will come back in power (arresting biden) in the beginning of March doesn't exactly speak well for the "especially on the left".
  - atonse 6y ago
    Although my side (the left) often says things like “reality has a left leaning bias” And it’s totally true when you’re countering the real charlatans of the right like Tom Cotton or Ted Cruz (to focus on American politics) But not a valid blanket statement whatsoever.
    - Person5478 6y ago
      What's hilarious about this is that Thomas Sowell says basically the opposite. He became a conservative because the leftist ideals (which are socialist and marxist in nature) feel good but reality simply doesn't work that way.
CivBase 6y ago
> I must say though that Fox News has gotten downright rational (on all things) since then. Politically biased, sure, but they're actually news lately. I've noticed that national news outlets in the US tend to be better when their preferred party is in power and worse when the opposition is in power. I suspect it's because in the latter case the news outlets slant all of their coverage towards negativity and discrediting the opposition. I thought CNN was much more tolerable during the Obama administration, but watching them over the last few years has consistently left my frustrated. Meanwhile, the reverse has been true for Fox News. That said, I don't consume much from either outlet.
- knorker 6y ago
  Maybe trump is an outlier, but (at least up until the election) I found Fox News to be completely bananas the last four years. So far they've been better under biden than trump. But yes, they were bananas under obama too.
losvedir 6y ago
No, you misunderstand. The comment asserts that the NYTimes, specifically, is biased, and this bias is harder for people on the left to see, because it aligns with their sensibilities. Meanwhile, it's easy for people on the right to see it. The comment doesn't say anything about people on the right being immune to it (and I would suspect there's a similar effect there in reverse, for eg Fox News).
chmod600 6y ago
I wasn't subscribed to any publications on the right (though in addition to the left-leaning publications I already mentioned, I was previously a WSJ subscriber once and an Economist subscriber a few times) so there wasn't anything to unsibscribe from. I don't see misbehavior on the right as a justification for lazy, manipulative groupthink by the NYT, or outright bullying. Especially when they are clearly capable of good reporting.

Fuzzwah 6y ago

I'm an outsider to US politics (in that I'm Australian), but I'm really interested to know what widely held "left" views you think are "incorrect"? The topics I understand as being pushed by the left in the US just seem so centerist to me, based on the political landscape that I'm living in. Single payer health care, minimum wage increases, increases in social support nets... So many topics I'd love to hear the argument against from any stand point that isn't pure capitalist greed.

PoignardAzur 6y ago
The minimum wage increase that Biden is pushing for is radical. He wants a 15$/hour minimum wage, which if I believe Wikipedia would be the highest minimum wage in the world right now. Not saying that's a bad thing, but I think it would qualify as left-wing in most countries. Agreed about social safety nets and most other policies. Sometimes it feels Americans don't realize how uniquely chaotic and inefficient their system is, compared to every other western country. The healthcare system in particular.
- ansible 6y ago
  Eh, it isn't that radical. These people making minimum wage are likely working part-time, so they don't get medical insurance. They often have to find two or more part-time jobs. Do they are working more hours than a full time job, but still don't have medical. An increase in the minimum wage will help a little, but having affordable health care works help more.
- 542354234235 6y ago
  > would be the highest minimum wage in the world right now. Australia's minimum wage for people over 21 is over $15 USD for full time work, and over $19 USD for part time (you receive a 25% casual loading rate increase for part time work). [1] That comes out to about 70% of their GDP per capita (working 38 hours per week, 50 weeks a year). The US going to $15 an hour would only be 43% of GDP per capita. If the US paid its minimum wage workers according to our actual economic output per person, our minimum wage would be $24 an hour, to match Australia. I wouldn’t really call $15 an hour radical. [1] https://blog.aigroup.com.au/australia-had-the-highest-minimum-wage-in-the-world-in-2019/ https://blog.aigroup.com.au/australia-had-the-highest-minimu...

polote 6y ago

The pandemic made me realize how much newspapers have impact on people opinions. If they keep telling a vaccine in unsafe, a big part of their readers will believe the vaccine is unsafe. If they keep telling a vaccine is safe a big part of their readers will believe the vaccine is safe. And that no matter what the reality is. I'm not american but reading NYT during the elections, I was astonished by how much NYT was blaming Trump for everything, and never say anything positive about him. Now I treat newspapers as propaganda. I actually stopped reading any news at all except bloomberg a month ago and can't be happier.

wycy 6y ago
> I was astonished by how much NYT was blaming Trump for everything The guy was calling the whole thing a hoax, I don't know what credit he should get for anything.
- hn8788 6y ago
  That was already debunked, but thanks for being an example of people believing whatever narrative the media pushes.
  - wycy 6y ago
    I've seen, with my own eyes, plenty of his tweets and videos of him saying it was a hoax, so debunk it for me.
    - yostrovs 6y ago
      You think you've seen videos and tweets. But you really haven't. There was one incident that came close: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-coronavirus-rally-remark/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-coronavirus-rally-re...
      - wycy 6y ago
        The Snopes article was published 2 weeks before the impacts of coronavirus even started to be felt in this country, back when he was privately telling the truth about it to Woodward. Trump's base overwhelmingly believes it's a hoax. So is "left" wing media lying to me that he says it's a hoax, or is right wing media lying to all his supporters that it's a hoax?

Shacklz 6y ago

As a regular European reader of the NYT, even the stronger left leaning columns from people such as Krugman/Kristof contain mostly opinions that are often considered "common sense" on our side of the pond. Maybe your opinion has more to do with how weird and dispatched from reality American politics has become and less with how the NYT wants to brainwash you, or whatever you think they're doing?

elefanten 6y ago
Interested to know what you’re referring to. If it’s social or economic policy, I’d get your view. But if it’s culture wars / identity politics you’re referring to, I’d be surprised and expect the opposite in Europe. My sense is many (most?) of the commenters here are off-put by the latter category. Edit: the reference to Krugman as significantly “left” just registered, and I don’t think that’s what people are referring to —- or even that most of NYT’s new guard would consider Krugman to be a leftist
goatinaboat 6y ago
mostly opinions that are often considered "common sense" on our side of the pond. The NYT’s views on race relations are so far from normal Europeans that Macron called them an existential threat to France.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]