7 ms·

Basically we're the linguistic and genetic flotsam and jetsam of Europe that happened to wash up on these shores. Not so much the Bulldog Breed as the scrappy m

by simonh 6y ago

Basically we're the linguistic and genetic flotsam and jetsam of Europe that happened to wash up on these shores. Not so much the Bulldog Breed as the scrappy mongrels of the continent.

fiftyacorn 6y ago
It's a pity some people in Britain can't accept the mongrel nature of Britain. Look at Boris Johnson, a mix of Turkish, french and old England
- gerdesj 6y ago
  ... or me: A mixture of all the the four nations hereabouts, plus German (whatever that means) a dash of Spanish etc etc ... all the way back to somewhere in Africa, depending on what the archaeologists dig up tomorrow. I dare you to define what Turkish, French and old England actually means. For starters: where/when does French stop and German start and vice versa? "Turkish" is just as complicated.
  - xwolfi 6y ago
    And the italians? I m french but I sure look a lot more like an Italian than a german. The mongrel nature of Britain is common for all multi border countries... and many are even Germany or Spain. I think we should really define countries by language, mountain and seas rather than blood, and frankly even those are shaky and changing. Maybe the best definition of a country is the largest geographical gradient that could sustain influence from a gigantic power centre without succumbing to another (for me, Paris, for the brits, London)?
    - gerdesj 6y ago
      London is France's sixth largest city: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-18234930 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-18234930 or it was in 2012!
- lonelyasacloud 6y ago
  Indeed. Or on the other side, that at least some of that diversity cost large amounts of blood and suffering at the time.
- secondcoming 6y ago
  What do you mean by this? I've never heard anyone claim that Britain hasn't been settled by various peoples over the millenia.
  - neilsense 6y ago
    The only meaning they have is to push an agenda of something that doesn't really happen but makes them sound good to HN.
  - smcl 6y ago
    I don’t think it is about recognising the origin of what we now call “British” people. But that there is still some intolerance of immigrants (particularly if they aren’t white) in Britain. It’s nowhere near as bad as it was but it still exists. Edit: downvotes suggest there’s some disagreement. I don’t think what I said is controversial or wrong, so I’d like to know the motivation
    - swiley 6y ago
      idk, after talking to a number of British people during lockdown there's a general intolerance of white immigrants too.
      - smcl 6y ago
        Yep there's a weird anti-Polish thing that popped up through the 2000s as Poland joined the EU. I never really understood it or saw anyone in my friends/family holding this belief so I hope it's not too bad.
    - type0 6y ago
      > I don’t think it is about recognising the origin of what we now call “British” people. But that there is still some intolerance of immigrants (particularly if they aren’t white) in Britain. As the saying goes in the old days some people could have a signs outside a shop "No dogs, no Irishmen and no blacks allowed". Was that really true for some parts of Britain or is it just tales?
- mrslave 6y ago
  > Look at Boris Johnson, a mix of Turkish, french and old England I don't understand, is Boris Johnson good or bad?
  - secondcoming 6y ago
    Tory: -1 Wealthy: -1 British: -1 Mixed Race: +100
  - Cro_on 6y ago
    He's right wing, which in the UK means you're either 50+ or racist.
  - fiftyacorn 6y ago
    I meant establishment more than old England. Which id define as a mix of old families and imperialism
gerdesj 6y ago
Bear in mind that crossing water by boat is a lot easier to get from A->B than across land in general. Back in the day the land was quite heavily forested and the M1 wasn't built. Even in "modern" times, it can take quite a while to get from say Plymouth to Inverness. I remember my mum (Devonian) recalling how long that trip took back in the '60s. Then she got posted to the islands on the north left and getting back home really took some time - the ferries can be a bit sporadic when the weather gets grotty 8) Try not to look at the map of Europe as a driver of a vehicle capable of >100mph. Imagine there are very few roads, except what the Romans left behind. There are not many people and a lot of trees. Police is a concept that is yet to be invented although the Shire Reeves (Sheriff) is an early model. Most people's horizons probably don't stretch much more than 10 miles for their entire life. Witches are real and doctors were scarce and scary - they hadn't even invented the leech at this time. That said, some folk did travel quite a long way. Bede famously recalls a story of a pope who remarks on some slaves in a market in Rome: "... they are surely Angels ...". He was talking about some Angles who were taken from these isles who he found rather good looking. If you really want to get a flavour of just how complicated things are genetically here, let alone in the rest of Europe, try Stephen Oppenheimer's "The origins of the British" (1-84119 894 3)
- udp 6y ago
  I would also add Bryan Sykes “Blood of the Isles” to the reading list after Oppenheimer. Both excellent reads... from strongly opinionated Oxford academics.
  - gerdesj 6y ago
    "strongly opinionated [Oxford] academics" - the best sort! As always, truth is not absolute but if you stop at the blandishments from that Geoff bloke off of Monmouth or that Walter Scott geezer, let alone whatever bollocks us English come up with, then it's downhill all the way to ... erm the present day.
- Lio 6y ago
  There's a great map at the Sutton Hoo site in Suffolk with the times to reach other places from there. Measured in days. It shows an empire based around the rim of the North Sea and you can immediately see why when you compare the times to reach anywhere over land compared to the see.
arethuza 6y ago
I'd love to know why the Scots had legends that we came from Scythia (of all places) via Spain and Ireland! "They journeyed from Greater Scythia by way of the Tyrrhenian Sea and the Pillars of Hercules, and dwelt for a long course of time in Spain among the most savage tribes, but nowhere could they be subdued by any race, however barbarous." https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/FeaturesBritain/Medieval_TextArbroath01.htm https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/FeaturesBritain/Medieval_Text...
- inawarminister 6y ago
  Well I mean linguistically the Scottish Celts are descended from Irish Gaelics which are descended from Gallo?-Iberian Celts which are in turn descended from Indo-European tribes, the first Steppe nomad society. Very interesting.
  - arethuza 6y ago
    Well, the Scots were originally a kingdom that was split between what is now Northern Ireland and parts of the west of Scotland with a base at the fortress of Dunadd. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1l_Riata https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1l_Riata NB I have stood on Dunadd with my foot in the Footprint of Fealty where kings were crowned: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunadd https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunadd
  - paganel 6y ago
    The Celts did in fact inhabit most of Europe in pre-Roman times, or at least very big swathes of it. For example there are some stone-made Celtic-crosses that are popular in what is today North-Western Romania (Maramures county), there are different articles about them (in Romanian) which also include some photos [1]. Now, I didn't know if that same type of cross was also present in Scotland but a quick search directed me to this article [2], which tells me that they used to be quite popular in early Christian times. The county of Maramures is pretty close to what used to be Scythia. I've found another blog-post with more photos about the Celtic crosses from Maramures [3], and in the comments in there someone also linked to similar crosses being found in Northern Greece/Macedonia, close to Thessaloniki [4]. Very interesting stuff. [1] https://www.bzi.ro/morosenii-au-origini-celtice-artefactul-care-da-peste-cap-istoria-romanilor-780662 https://www.bzi.ro/morosenii-au-origini-celtice-artefactul-c... [2] https://www.churchofscotland.org.uk/news-and-events/news/2017/scotlands-crosses https://www.churchofscotland.org.uk/news-and-events/news/201... [3] https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/abandoned-bogomils-graveyard https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/abandoned-bogomils-grave... [4] https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/abandoned-bogomils-graveyard https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/abandoned-bogomils-grave...
gandalfian 6y ago
or cuckoo's perhaps.
gadders 6y ago
Well, up until about 1,000 years ago. I would think major population shifts were pretty steady after the Norman conquest.

by simonh 6y ago

Basically we're the linguistic and genetic flotsam and jetsam of Europe that happened to wash up on these shores. Not so much the Bulldog Breed as the scrappy mongrels of the continent.

fiftyacorn 6y ago

It's a pity some people in Britain can't accept the mongrel nature of Britain. Look at Boris Johnson, a mix of Turkish, french and old England

gerdesj 6y ago
... or me: A mixture of all the the four nations hereabouts, plus German (whatever that means) a dash of Spanish etc etc ... all the way back to somewhere in Africa, depending on what the archaeologists dig up tomorrow. I dare you to define what Turkish, French and old England actually means. For starters: where/when does French stop and German start and vice versa? "Turkish" is just as complicated.
- xwolfi 6y ago
  And the italians? I m french but I sure look a lot more like an Italian than a german. The mongrel nature of Britain is common for all multi border countries... and many are even Germany or Spain. I think we should really define countries by language, mountain and seas rather than blood, and frankly even those are shaky and changing. Maybe the best definition of a country is the largest geographical gradient that could sustain influence from a gigantic power centre without succumbing to another (for me, Paris, for the brits, London)?
  - gerdesj 6y ago
    London is France's sixth largest city: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-18234930 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-18234930 or it was in 2012!
lonelyasacloud 6y ago
Indeed. Or on the other side, that at least some of that diversity cost large amounts of blood and suffering at the time.
secondcoming 6y ago
What do you mean by this? I've never heard anyone claim that Britain hasn't been settled by various peoples over the millenia.
- neilsense 6y ago
  The only meaning they have is to push an agenda of something that doesn't really happen but makes them sound good to HN.
- smcl 6y ago
  I don’t think it is about recognising the origin of what we now call “British” people. But that there is still some intolerance of immigrants (particularly if they aren’t white) in Britain. It’s nowhere near as bad as it was but it still exists. Edit: downvotes suggest there’s some disagreement. I don’t think what I said is controversial or wrong, so I’d like to know the motivation
  - swiley 6y ago
    idk, after talking to a number of British people during lockdown there's a general intolerance of white immigrants too.
    - smcl 6y ago
      Yep there's a weird anti-Polish thing that popped up through the 2000s as Poland joined the EU. I never really understood it or saw anyone in my friends/family holding this belief so I hope it's not too bad.
  - type0 6y ago
    > I don’t think it is about recognising the origin of what we now call “British” people. But that there is still some intolerance of immigrants (particularly if they aren’t white) in Britain. As the saying goes in the old days some people could have a signs outside a shop "No dogs, no Irishmen and no blacks allowed". Was that really true for some parts of Britain or is it just tales?
mrslave 6y ago
> Look at Boris Johnson, a mix of Turkish, french and old England I don't understand, is Boris Johnson good or bad?
- secondcoming 6y ago
  Tory: -1 Wealthy: -1 British: -1 Mixed Race: +100
- Cro_on 6y ago
  He's right wing, which in the UK means you're either 50+ or racist.
- fiftyacorn 6y ago
  I meant establishment more than old England. Which id define as a mix of old families and imperialism

gerdesj 6y ago

Bear in mind that crossing water by boat is a lot easier to get from A->B than across land in general. Back in the day the land was quite heavily forested and the M1 wasn't built. Even in "modern" times, it can take quite a while to get from say Plymouth to Inverness. I remember my mum (Devonian) recalling how long that trip took back in the '60s. Then she got posted to the islands on the north left and getting back home really took some time - the ferries can be a bit sporadic when the weather gets grotty 8) Try not to look at the map of Europe as a driver of a vehicle capable of >100mph. Imagine there are very few roads, except what the Romans left behind. There are not many people and a lot of trees. Police is a concept that is yet to be invented although the Shire Reeves (Sheriff) is an early model. Most people's horizons probably don't stretch much more than 10 miles for their entire life. Witches are real and doctors were scarce and scary - they hadn't even invented the leech at this time. That said, some folk did travel quite a long way. Bede famously recalls a story of a pope who remarks on some slaves in a market in Rome: "... they are surely Angels ...". He was talking about some Angles who were taken from these isles who he found rather good looking. If you really want to get a flavour of just how complicated things are genetically here, let alone in the rest of Europe, try Stephen Oppenheimer's "The origins of the British" (1-84119 894 3)

udp 6y ago
I would also add Bryan Sykes “Blood of the Isles” to the reading list after Oppenheimer. Both excellent reads... from strongly opinionated Oxford academics.
- gerdesj 6y ago
  "strongly opinionated [Oxford] academics" - the best sort! As always, truth is not absolute but if you stop at the blandishments from that Geoff bloke off of Monmouth or that Walter Scott geezer, let alone whatever bollocks us English come up with, then it's downhill all the way to ... erm the present day.
Lio 6y ago
There's a great map at the Sutton Hoo site in Suffolk with the times to reach other places from there. Measured in days. It shows an empire based around the rim of the North Sea and you can immediately see why when you compare the times to reach anywhere over land compared to the see.

arethuza 6y ago

I'd love to know why the Scots had legends that we came from Scythia (of all places) via Spain and Ireland! "They journeyed from Greater Scythia by way of the Tyrrhenian Sea and the Pillars of Hercules, and dwelt for a long course of time in Spain among the most savage tribes, but nowhere could they be subdued by any race, however barbarous." https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/FeaturesBritain/Medieval_TextArbroath01.htm https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/FeaturesBritain/Medieval_Text...

inawarminister 6y ago
Well I mean linguistically the Scottish Celts are descended from Irish Gaelics which are descended from Gallo?-Iberian Celts which are in turn descended from Indo-European tribes, the first Steppe nomad society. Very interesting.
- arethuza 6y ago
  Well, the Scots were originally a kingdom that was split between what is now Northern Ireland and parts of the west of Scotland with a base at the fortress of Dunadd. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1l_Riata https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1l_Riata NB I have stood on Dunadd with my foot in the Footprint of Fealty where kings were crowned: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunadd https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunadd
- paganel 6y ago
  The Celts did in fact inhabit most of Europe in pre-Roman times, or at least very big swathes of it. For example there are some stone-made Celtic-crosses that are popular in what is today North-Western Romania (Maramures county), there are different articles about them (in Romanian) which also include some photos [1]. Now, I didn't know if that same type of cross was also present in Scotland but a quick search directed me to this article [2], which tells me that they used to be quite popular in early Christian times. The county of Maramures is pretty close to what used to be Scythia. I've found another blog-post with more photos about the Celtic crosses from Maramures [3], and in the comments in there someone also linked to similar crosses being found in Northern Greece/Macedonia, close to Thessaloniki [4]. Very interesting stuff. [1] https://www.bzi.ro/morosenii-au-origini-celtice-artefactul-care-da-peste-cap-istoria-romanilor-780662 https://www.bzi.ro/morosenii-au-origini-celtice-artefactul-c... [2] https://www.churchofscotland.org.uk/news-and-events/news/2017/scotlands-crosses https://www.churchofscotland.org.uk/news-and-events/news/201... [3] https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/abandoned-bogomils-graveyard https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/abandoned-bogomils-grave... [4] https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/abandoned-bogomils-graveyard https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/abandoned-bogomils-grave...

gandalfian 6y ago

or cuckoo's perhaps.

gadders 6y ago

Well, up until about 1,000 years ago. I would think major population shifts were pretty steady after the Norman conquest.