4 ms·

I'd imagine that Dale talks and hangs out with pretty smart young people, so that there is a big confirmation bias that doesn't consider the 90% of everyone els

I'd imagine that Dale talks and hangs out with pretty smart young people, so that there is a big confirmation bias that doesn't consider the 90% of everyone else. Or does he? The stuff he says is pretty similar to people I knew who I didn't think were very bright. But who doesn't think they're smart? Everyone thinks what they're doing is the right thing. And at age 19 half the people I knew had opinions about everything, from education, to how we should really go about curing cancer, to how we could have won the Vietnam War in just a few years. 19 year olds with opinions that have little basis in reality is not a new phenomenom -- although of course there are also some genuinely bright ones.

markbao 15y ago
Yeah, but he is part of the Thiel Fellowship, which I tend to see as a pretty damn smart group of young people. And I know Dale and know that he talks to these "moving forward" type of teens. On the other hand, I'm yet another 19-year-old with an opinion. Yes, I think I know something about what the right decision for college is (and I think it's completely individual), so perhaps I just fall under that category and the above should just be ignored. Not that I think so, of course.
- kenjackson 15y ago
  I don't know Dale, but reading that article leads me to different conclusions about him than you probably already have. :-) I will say this for starters. I thought that college was actually one of the most open environments I've ever been in. Moreso than pre-college education. Moreso than working at a VC-backed startups. Moreso than working in corporate America. Probably the only time I had significantly more freedom was taking some time off between jobs. When I see statements like, "Failure is punished instead of seen as a learning opportunity" -- I see immaturity. He punishes himself for failure. I've seen it as a learning opportunity since junior high at least (I think this something athletics really instils in children, although certainly not exclusive to athletics). In any case, he sounds like a friend, and I don't want to rant on a friend, especially if he's not here to defend himself. I look forward to what he can do over the years. Maybe he'll prove me wrong.
  - bmac27 15y ago
    "He punishes himself for failure." Disagree. In many cases academia DOES actively punish failure, through negative feedback mechanisms involving grades, comments on papers/essays and the like that subjugate "out-of-the-box-thinking" in favor of a certain theme or buzzword a professor wants to hear, what his or her political or economic viewpoint is, etc. I'm not saying this is inherently good or bad either. If you're a surgeon or an airline pilot, your room for experimentation & outside the box thinking is slim to nil. But actively discouraging an aspiring hacker, developer, entrepreneur etc. from experimentation (I.E. a high rate of failure before success) is a surefire way to diffuse the creative process, in my mind.
    - kenjackson 15y ago
      Disagree. In many cases academia DOES actively punish failure, through negative feedback mechanisms involving grades, comments on papers/essays and the like that subjugate "out-of-the-box-thinking" in favor of a certain theme or buzzword a professor wants to hear, what his or her political or economic viewpoint is, etc. I think you're conflating two things here: negative feedback and biased evaluation. Two very different things. Regarding negative feedback -- it's not failure, it's feedback. And that's what I mean by the immaturity aspect. When I was a kid, I'd cry when I lost at chess. As I got older I usually learned more from my losses than my wins. They were no longer just failures, it was a chance to improve. Throughout school I felt the same way. Comments on papers/essays and grades I used to make myself better. I appreciated them. The biased evaluation isn't unique to college. In fact its a pretty major part of life in general. You're going to have to deal with it in businss, dealing with VCs, dealing with spouses, banks, employees, etc... If you can figure out a way to remove it, I'd love to see it. Regarding out of the box thinking, I generally found it well received. Especially in CS. But I guess YMMV.
      - kwis 15y ago
        A high college GPA sends me a very clear message: this candidate has a proven ability to identify what dozens of different professors and TAs wanted, and deliver it. When I was 19, I didn't see it as a valuable skill, I just thought it was obnoxious bullshit. Today, I see it as so valuable that when faced with a pile of potential candidates, nearly everybody who graduated magna or summa gets at least a phone interview.
fecklessyouth 15y ago
I also have trouble accepting statements about college from someone who attended one for less than a year. I don't think there is a set-in-stone college experience, and it seems from his article that his experience differed sharply from mine. (The differences between good and bad colleges are, of course, usually missing from these sorts of discussions...I have difficulty taking seriously anyone who can critique or discuss "college" as if it were one monolithic program.)
- flomincucci 15y ago
  +1 to that. College is not to teach you "how to be successful" or "become a better coder". In this case, it's about giving you the tools to learn to think. (...I think this doesn't apply for med school, though)
  - xcallemjudasx 15y ago
    There's also the huge network of people you meet that help you later in your career. I've lost track of the number of people I know who have been given job offers from old friends/fraternity brothers/faculty they kept in touch with. I have my current job because of an alumni from my school. There's a lot more to the college experience than just the diploma.

markbao 15y ago

Yeah, but he is part of the Thiel Fellowship, which I tend to see as a pretty damn smart group of young people. And I know Dale and know that he talks to these "moving forward" type of teens. On the other hand, I'm yet another 19-year-old with an opinion. Yes, I think I know something about what the right decision for college is (and I think it's completely individual), so perhaps I just fall under that category and the above should just be ignored. Not that I think so, of course.

kenjackson 15y ago
I don't know Dale, but reading that article leads me to different conclusions about him than you probably already have. :-) I will say this for starters. I thought that college was actually one of the most open environments I've ever been in. Moreso than pre-college education. Moreso than working at a VC-backed startups. Moreso than working in corporate America. Probably the only time I had significantly more freedom was taking some time off between jobs. When I see statements like, "Failure is punished instead of seen as a learning opportunity" -- I see immaturity. He punishes himself for failure. I've seen it as a learning opportunity since junior high at least (I think this something athletics really instils in children, although certainly not exclusive to athletics). In any case, he sounds like a friend, and I don't want to rant on a friend, especially if he's not here to defend himself. I look forward to what he can do over the years. Maybe he'll prove me wrong.
- bmac27 15y ago
  "He punishes himself for failure." Disagree. In many cases academia DOES actively punish failure, through negative feedback mechanisms involving grades, comments on papers/essays and the like that subjugate "out-of-the-box-thinking" in favor of a certain theme or buzzword a professor wants to hear, what his or her political or economic viewpoint is, etc. I'm not saying this is inherently good or bad either. If you're a surgeon or an airline pilot, your room for experimentation & outside the box thinking is slim to nil. But actively discouraging an aspiring hacker, developer, entrepreneur etc. from experimentation (I.E. a high rate of failure before success) is a surefire way to diffuse the creative process, in my mind.
  - kenjackson 15y ago
    Disagree. In many cases academia DOES actively punish failure, through negative feedback mechanisms involving grades, comments on papers/essays and the like that subjugate "out-of-the-box-thinking" in favor of a certain theme or buzzword a professor wants to hear, what his or her political or economic viewpoint is, etc. I think you're conflating two things here: negative feedback and biased evaluation. Two very different things. Regarding negative feedback -- it's not failure, it's feedback. And that's what I mean by the immaturity aspect. When I was a kid, I'd cry when I lost at chess. As I got older I usually learned more from my losses than my wins. They were no longer just failures, it was a chance to improve. Throughout school I felt the same way. Comments on papers/essays and grades I used to make myself better. I appreciated them. The biased evaluation isn't unique to college. In fact its a pretty major part of life in general. You're going to have to deal with it in businss, dealing with VCs, dealing with spouses, banks, employees, etc... If you can figure out a way to remove it, I'd love to see it. Regarding out of the box thinking, I generally found it well received. Especially in CS. But I guess YMMV.
    - kwis 15y ago
      A high college GPA sends me a very clear message: this candidate has a proven ability to identify what dozens of different professors and TAs wanted, and deliver it. When I was 19, I didn't see it as a valuable skill, I just thought it was obnoxious bullshit. Today, I see it as so valuable that when faced with a pile of potential candidates, nearly everybody who graduated magna or summa gets at least a phone interview.

fecklessyouth 15y ago

I also have trouble accepting statements about college from someone who attended one for less than a year. I don't think there is a set-in-stone college experience, and it seems from his article that his experience differed sharply from mine. (The differences between good and bad colleges are, of course, usually missing from these sorts of discussions...I have difficulty taking seriously anyone who can critique or discuss "college" as if it were one monolithic program.)

flomincucci 15y ago
+1 to that. College is not to teach you "how to be successful" or "become a better coder". In this case, it's about giving you the tools to learn to think. (...I think this doesn't apply for med school, though)
- xcallemjudasx 15y ago
  There's also the huge network of people you meet that help you later in your career. I've lost track of the number of people I know who have been given job offers from old friends/fraternity brothers/faculty they kept in touch with. I have my current job because of an alumni from my school. There's a lot more to the college experience than just the diploma.