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> If you're legitimately a people manager (not a low grade 'team lead'), there is no way, no how, you could have 80% free time. Just because you've never seen

by _ek94 6y ago

> If you're legitimately a people manager (not a low grade 'team lead'), there is no way, no how, you could have 80% free time. Just because you've never seen this dynamic work successfully doesn't mean that it doesn't. The best manager I've ever had operated like this. She spent most of her time coding and made sure to know what everyone on the team was up to. We were all competent professionals, so we did a perfectly fine job of prioritizing our work and working with others within the team and across teams to get things done. It helped that much of our work could easily be undertaken in parallel with strong ownership of different parts of the code by a single person, but when there were projects that required strong and frequent collaboration she just carved out a sub-team and designated a lead then trusted the lead in the same way she trusted us as individuals. Not only did this mean that we got the benefit of her very impressive technical contributions, but it also meant that we were all able to be more productive because we spent vastly less time in BS meetings. Afterwards, I moved to a company with a more traditional structure. Ostensibly there were three people in charge of me: my engineering manager, my product manager, and my designer (since we are "design lead"). It was a pretty big culture shock. One difference is that there are a lot more junior people in my new company (the average age was around 50 in the first one), and I think younger engineers may need a firmer hand, but I'm not sure that that explains it all. I joined the first place right out of college and thrived in that environment. I think most people don't understand just how effective a minimal management strategy can be because they've never experienced one that works well.

brandall10 6y ago
I meant specifically things only a manager does. For instance, the presentations he does are for director/vp level, hefty slide deck stuff. Of course the more senior ICs do more than simply code AFA talk across teams and divisions to scope and define work, present workshops and presentations to the team and cross-departments, contribute to architecture decisions, present as SMEs across various parts of the stack, and mentor juniors. None of the ICs year on my team spend more than 80% of their time simply coding, the more senior staff spend probably more like 60-70%, and I spend about 50%. I’ve worked at 14 companies over 23 years, from 3 Fortune 500s, to a couple mid-sized, to a bunch of smaller companies, to a handful of early stage startups. Have had probably close to 20 supervisors over this time and interfaced with dozens of other managers on related teams, and been a team lead about 5 or so times and a manager once. I’ve never seen this dynamic play out. IME you're talking about a team lead not an actual people manager. Even in the most streamlined/simplest environments, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a people manager spend the majority of their time coding, not unless they were pushing 60+ hours doing so. Something as simple as 1-on-1s should be done at least once every week or two, and that can take up to an hour (or more counting prep) for every report. Your mention of having multiple sups and junior heavy ICs at one place sounds dysfunctional and has little relation to any place I’ve worked at.
- _ek94 6y ago
  Those presentations to the higher levels didn’t really happen because the corporate structure was very flat. Also, I would not expect those to take up all that much time. You may have worked at a lot of places, but your experience is still only a tiny slice of the different shops out there. My experience is likewise limited, and I acknowledge that such light touch management is probably very rare, but it can and does work. You said she was a team lead not a real manager, which does have some truth to it, but it’s not like there was someone doing the “real” management work to pick up the slack for her. In the right environment that stuff simply isn’t needed.
  - cutemonster 6y ago
    > such light touch management is probably very rare Don't be too certain about that :-) I recognize the things you mention from my first job, I had a manager / CTO who were like her. (This was a 20-30 ppl startup, high trust, not many meetings)
    - _ek94 6y ago
      It’s good to know there is hope of landing another such gig :)

by _ek94 6y ago

brandall10 6y ago

I meant specifically things only a manager does. For instance, the presentations he does are for director/vp level, hefty slide deck stuff. Of course the more senior ICs do more than simply code AFA talk across teams and divisions to scope and define work, present workshops and presentations to the team and cross-departments, contribute to architecture decisions, present as SMEs across various parts of the stack, and mentor juniors. None of the ICs year on my team spend more than 80% of their time simply coding, the more senior staff spend probably more like 60-70%, and I spend about 50%. I’ve worked at 14 companies over 23 years, from 3 Fortune 500s, to a couple mid-sized, to a bunch of smaller companies, to a handful of early stage startups. Have had probably close to 20 supervisors over this time and interfaced with dozens of other managers on related teams, and been a team lead about 5 or so times and a manager once. I’ve never seen this dynamic play out. IME you're talking about a team lead not an actual people manager. Even in the most streamlined/simplest environments, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a people manager spend the majority of their time coding, not unless they were pushing 60+ hours doing so. Something as simple as 1-on-1s should be done at least once every week or two, and that can take up to an hour (or more counting prep) for every report. Your mention of having multiple sups and junior heavy ICs at one place sounds dysfunctional and has little relation to any place I’ve worked at.

_ek94 6y ago
Those presentations to the higher levels didn’t really happen because the corporate structure was very flat. Also, I would not expect those to take up all that much time. You may have worked at a lot of places, but your experience is still only a tiny slice of the different shops out there. My experience is likewise limited, and I acknowledge that such light touch management is probably very rare, but it can and does work. You said she was a team lead not a real manager, which does have some truth to it, but it’s not like there was someone doing the “real” management work to pick up the slack for her. In the right environment that stuff simply isn’t needed.
- cutemonster 6y ago
  > such light touch management is probably very rare Don't be too certain about that :-) I recognize the things you mention from my first job, I had a manager / CTO who were like her. (This was a 20-30 ppl startup, high trust, not many meetings)
  - _ek94 6y ago
    It’s good to know there is hope of landing another such gig :)