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I really don't understand why is it fashionable to claim this these days in these forums. I have no numbers for "eInk's bullshit monopoly practices". I see a lo

I really don't understand why is it fashionable to claim this these days in these forums. I have no numbers for "eInk's bullshit monopoly practices". I see a lot of chinese manufacturers building eInk devices. No hint whatsoever of either abusive practices or abusive royalties. Does someone have any evidence? Most other competitors to eInk (e.g. Qualcomm/Mirasol, Gyricon, etc.) had viable products and have completely failed in the market. Is this really "einks abusive practices" or is it just complete consumer disinterest in the technology outside of these extremely niche markets?

igorstellar 6y ago
> I see a lot of chinese manufacturers building eInk devices. can you add some links to back up this claim? asking for a friend.
- tazjin 6y ago
  They probably mean Dasung (http://www.dasungtech.com/ http://www.dasungtech.com/) and Onyx (https://www.boox.com/ https://www.boox.com/). The former actually build eInk computer monitors with HDMI inputs, but they're very expensive and somewhat difficult to buy.
- AshamedCaptain 6y ago
  Just count the chinese manufacturers at https://wiki.mobileread.com/wiki/E-book_devices https://wiki.mobileread.com/wiki/E-book_devices . They're majority.
cptskippy 6y ago
E Ink is part of a consortium that owns all the patents around the technology used in their ePaper displays. The general consensus is that they are difficult to deal with and require numerous NDAs and licensing agreements to gain access to their technology. Nick Sheridon, inventor of the first ePaper display, suggested the watershed moment for ePaper would be in 2012 where it would gain mass adoption. It's been almost a decade and that watershed has yet to occur. Many believe that the difficulty in dealing with them and their licensing requirements are stifling the widespread adoption of the technology.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- jychang 6y ago
  Not that i don't believe you, but do you have any sources for that? A quick google search didn't turn up any articles or anything, just corporate websites.
  - robinsoh 6y ago
    "E Ink is part of a consortium that owns all the patents around the technology used in their ePaper displays." That appears to be nonsense as far as I know. And I'm actively involved in the display industry. I keep seeing this kind of comment in HN which is surprising and each time I always ask give us some evidence or links we can read to verify and I get no answer. Same when I ask what patents are apparently blocking innovation or keeping EInk displays expensive, no answer or non-verifiable answers like patent thicket, secret conspiracy. As a person actually involved with displays, the biggest problem with E-Ink displays is they can't get to the next level of scale because they can't solve yield issues and they can't solve those because they can't get higher volumes. If someone like Apple suddenly put in a pre-paid order for 10 million E Ink displays, I bet you they could get to the next level.
    - AshamedCaptain 6y ago
      > they can't get to the next level of scale because they can't solve yield issues and they can't solve those because they can't get higher volumes I really doubt that theory, either. This world has just way too much money completely idle waiting. It would be extremely easy for them to get really big money if they really had anything that would be world-changing. The problem is that, once you really look into it, there is absolutely nothing in eInk that is world changing. Consumers have problems distinguishing the supposedly better contrast from cheap reflective+monochrome LCD displays (like the Pebble or stuff sold in amazon for $10 these days). But they can easily recognize it the moment the slow refresh comes in. So your average customer only sees disadvantages and high price. They will choose reflective LCD any day over pure eInk. And thus all use cases where eInk might have succeeded are perfectly covered with plain old reflective LCDs (e.g. week-long battery life, primarily outside use such as smartwatches). So your only other benefit about eInk is the passive power usage when not refreshing. Which is why they are making some in-roads into this type of market, e.g. sales price tags, signs, etc. But consumer market? There is just no interest whatsoever from consumers. None whatsoever. Only a handful of geeks know what benefits eInk brings over reflective LCDs (angles, polarity), and out of them only a handful care enough about them to buy.
robinsoh 6y ago
> Most other competitors to eInk (e.g. Qualcomm/Mirasol, Gyricon, etc.) had viable products and have completely failed in the market. I wasn't aware Mirasol ever made it out of handmade demo units. Maybe they did manage to produce some production level small displays like 4" but I heard from a fab guy in Longtan that they just couldn't get the process to work reliably. > consumer disinterest in the technology outside of these extremely niche markets? Consumers would be interested if they could be cheap and fast like LCD. But E-Ink is probably never going to get fast because you can't bypass physics unless they find a different way to get pigment particles to move. It won't get cheap either because you need huge volumes to get there. So unless someone with Applesque bank account makes that order, E-Ink will always be more expensive than LCDs.
- AshamedCaptain 6y ago
  > I wasn't aware Mirasol ever made it out of handmade demo units. I still have my Qualcomm Toq watch. So yes, they did manage.

igorstellar 6y ago

> I see a lot of chinese manufacturers building eInk devices. can you add some links to back up this claim? asking for a friend.

tazjin 6y ago
They probably mean Dasung (http://www.dasungtech.com/ http://www.dasungtech.com/) and Onyx (https://www.boox.com/ https://www.boox.com/). The former actually build eInk computer monitors with HDMI inputs, but they're very expensive and somewhat difficult to buy.
AshamedCaptain 6y ago
Just count the chinese manufacturers at https://wiki.mobileread.com/wiki/E-book_devices https://wiki.mobileread.com/wiki/E-book_devices . They're majority.

cptskippy 6y ago

E Ink is part of a consortium that owns all the patents around the technology used in their ePaper displays. The general consensus is that they are difficult to deal with and require numerous NDAs and licensing agreements to gain access to their technology. Nick Sheridon, inventor of the first ePaper display, suggested the watershed moment for ePaper would be in 2012 where it would gain mass adoption. It's been almost a decade and that watershed has yet to occur. Many believe that the difficulty in dealing with them and their licensing requirements are stifling the widespread adoption of the technology.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
jychang 6y ago
Not that i don't believe you, but do you have any sources for that? A quick google search didn't turn up any articles or anything, just corporate websites.
- robinsoh 6y ago
  "E Ink is part of a consortium that owns all the patents around the technology used in their ePaper displays." That appears to be nonsense as far as I know. And I'm actively involved in the display industry. I keep seeing this kind of comment in HN which is surprising and each time I always ask give us some evidence or links we can read to verify and I get no answer. Same when I ask what patents are apparently blocking innovation or keeping EInk displays expensive, no answer or non-verifiable answers like patent thicket, secret conspiracy. As a person actually involved with displays, the biggest problem with E-Ink displays is they can't get to the next level of scale because they can't solve yield issues and they can't solve those because they can't get higher volumes. If someone like Apple suddenly put in a pre-paid order for 10 million E Ink displays, I bet you they could get to the next level.
  - AshamedCaptain 6y ago
    > they can't get to the next level of scale because they can't solve yield issues and they can't solve those because they can't get higher volumes I really doubt that theory, either. This world has just way too much money completely idle waiting. It would be extremely easy for them to get really big money if they really had anything that would be world-changing. The problem is that, once you really look into it, there is absolutely nothing in eInk that is world changing. Consumers have problems distinguishing the supposedly better contrast from cheap reflective+monochrome LCD displays (like the Pebble or stuff sold in amazon for $10 these days). But they can easily recognize it the moment the slow refresh comes in. So your average customer only sees disadvantages and high price. They will choose reflective LCD any day over pure eInk. And thus all use cases where eInk might have succeeded are perfectly covered with plain old reflective LCDs (e.g. week-long battery life, primarily outside use such as smartwatches). So your only other benefit about eInk is the passive power usage when not refreshing. Which is why they are making some in-roads into this type of market, e.g. sales price tags, signs, etc. But consumer market? There is just no interest whatsoever from consumers. None whatsoever. Only a handful of geeks know what benefits eInk brings over reflective LCDs (angles, polarity), and out of them only a handful care enough about them to buy.

robinsoh 6y ago

> Most other competitors to eInk (e.g. Qualcomm/Mirasol, Gyricon, etc.) had viable products and have completely failed in the market. I wasn't aware Mirasol ever made it out of handmade demo units. Maybe they did manage to produce some production level small displays like 4" but I heard from a fab guy in Longtan that they just couldn't get the process to work reliably. > consumer disinterest in the technology outside of these extremely niche markets? Consumers would be interested if they could be cheap and fast like LCD. But E-Ink is probably never going to get fast because you can't bypass physics unless they find a different way to get pigment particles to move. It won't get cheap either because you need huge volumes to get there. So unless someone with Applesque bank account makes that order, E-Ink will always be more expensive than LCDs.

AshamedCaptain 6y ago
> I wasn't aware Mirasol ever made it out of handmade demo units. I still have my Qualcomm Toq watch. So yes, they did manage.