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It's pretty simple. Apple users don't want to spell it, so I will. They want Apple to have a strong market position, so Apple can dictate their conditions to e

It's pretty simple. Apple users don't want to spell it, so I will. They want Apple to have a strong market position, so Apple can dictate their conditions to everyone else. They like the fact that Apple can bend every developer out there including Facebook and Google, because access to Apple users is a luxury. They like the fact that Apple uses its position to benefit Apple users. Of course Apple uses its position to benefit Apple itself as well, but users don't care as long as they got their personal benefits like improved privacy or security. If that comes at a price to other developers, price that those developers would not pay with more open approach, users still don't care. If Apple would allow installing of any applications to their phones, plenty of apps would run from Apple, because developers hate Apple. Installing some kind of OpenStore would be the first thing you're doing with your iPhone. AppStore would be empty just like Mac AppStore is empty. Very few developers would willingly pay 15% of their revenue to Apple just to have non-existent AppStore marketing (unless you're in lucky 0.001% who got top ranks). So those developers would not bend to Apple and Apple users would get reduced experience, less privacy, etc.

echelon 6y ago
In a way, the Apple fans don't matter. The DOJ can fix this single-handedly and force Apple to open up. We need to speak up now more than ever. The heat against Apple is turning up, and with all this pressure and focus we can frame our argument with crystal clarity and make it LOUD. Tim Sweeny, DHH, and plenty of other luminaries are carrying this argument forward. We need to join them in unison.
- leadingthenet 6y ago
  Why, though? Why does everything need to become like Android? Why can’t Apple and its users do their own thing? What’s with this Borg mentality HN has when it comes to Apple? Assimilate or perish. I genuinely think it’s deep seated envy, frankly.
  - echelon 6y ago
    > Why does everything need to become like Android? It's not like Android. It's like computers before iPhone. > Why can’t Apple and its users do their own thing? Because if I want my startup to succeed, I have to have an iPhone app. Apple makes this hostile to everyone that isn't them. You need design approval to push updates, you can't deploy when you want. You have to pay the 30% tax and use Apple payment rails. You have to support Apple sign-in, which means you can never form a customer relationship. (It's fine for Apple to have that relationship, but not anyone else.) Taking advantage of the rise of the internet, Apple has used their incredible market position to elbow their way into every aspect of business. If you want to reach "their" customers, you have to play by the arbitrary rules they set. Rules that defend their market position and extract tax. > What’s with this Borg mentality HN has when it comes to Apple? What’s with this Borg mentality HN has when it comes to Apple fans? > Assimilate or perish. Assimilate or perish, the Apple fans tell other businesses and entrepreneurs. > I genuinely think it’s deep seated envy, frankly. It's anger that we're being abused by a gorilla-sized mobster and that nothing has been done to protect us. It's anger that the open computing and world wide web of the 90s and 2000s has been grifted and coopted by Google and Apple. That computing has been redefined as something proprietary. They've taken advantage of open source and open Internet, and leveraged that to capture and control the market. Software freedoms that enabled their rise are now dying because of these companies. They're making it harder for us to succeed and taking more of the pie for themselves. They got theirs, and now they're putting it under lock and key. Call it envy all you want. It's not fair for computing to be owned by the incumbents. Would you still have this opinion if history had been different and Microsoft's Windows Phone had taken the place of the iPhone? Would you be happy with the Windows Store, Microsoft's 30% fee, Microsoft's design guidelines, etc? Replace everything Apple you own with Microsoft, couple it with the same proprietary stance, and tell me you'd be happy. Take that thought process one step further and disregard the company altogether. It doesn't matter who is doing these things. Apple is immaterial. The behavior is bad and it shouldn't be allowed. This is why the DOJ hammered Microsoft -- rightly so -- and will do the same to Apple.
    - kmlx 6y ago
      > Because if I want my startup to succeed, I have to have an iPhone app. This is false.
paulmd 6y ago
Yes, Apple's control increases user privacy (cf permissions on the Google app store, and how flashlight apps used to demand call log access, contact lists, and of course network access to exfiltrate it all back to the mothership). It's difficult for the HN userset to understand, but a more private, more secure experience is more of a benefit than the ability to install arbitrary unsigned apps. Most normal users don't care about installing the handful of apps that can't pass Apple certification, and it is in fact probably better that they not be on the platform because there are reasons they're being excluded. Epic's fight here is to block that user experience from being allowed in the marketplace. There exist "open platforms", people choose Apple because they want curation. Moreover, Epic is mad because that user experience is winning, there are a significant number of users who prefer curation over the ability to sideload whatever garbage.
judge2020 6y ago
> Of course Apple uses its position to benefit Apple itself as well, but users don't care as long as they got their personal benefits like improved privacy or security. If that comes at a price to other developers, price that those developers would not pay with more open approach, users still don't care. If this is true, then you need to ask the question "should big companies be forced to be more competitive, even if doing so means a good amount of customers will lose privacy and security", and your answer will be entirely one of preference, what you say can't be correct or incorrect.

echelon 6y ago

In a way, the Apple fans don't matter. The DOJ can fix this single-handedly and force Apple to open up. We need to speak up now more than ever. The heat against Apple is turning up, and with all this pressure and focus we can frame our argument with crystal clarity and make it LOUD. Tim Sweeny, DHH, and plenty of other luminaries are carrying this argument forward. We need to join them in unison.

leadingthenet 6y ago
Why, though? Why does everything need to become like Android? Why can’t Apple and its users do their own thing? What’s with this Borg mentality HN has when it comes to Apple? Assimilate or perish. I genuinely think it’s deep seated envy, frankly.
- echelon 6y ago
  > Why does everything need to become like Android? It's not like Android. It's like computers before iPhone. > Why can’t Apple and its users do their own thing? Because if I want my startup to succeed, I have to have an iPhone app. Apple makes this hostile to everyone that isn't them. You need design approval to push updates, you can't deploy when you want. You have to pay the 30% tax and use Apple payment rails. You have to support Apple sign-in, which means you can never form a customer relationship. (It's fine for Apple to have that relationship, but not anyone else.) Taking advantage of the rise of the internet, Apple has used their incredible market position to elbow their way into every aspect of business. If you want to reach "their" customers, you have to play by the arbitrary rules they set. Rules that defend their market position and extract tax. > What’s with this Borg mentality HN has when it comes to Apple? What’s with this Borg mentality HN has when it comes to Apple fans? > Assimilate or perish. Assimilate or perish, the Apple fans tell other businesses and entrepreneurs. > I genuinely think it’s deep seated envy, frankly. It's anger that we're being abused by a gorilla-sized mobster and that nothing has been done to protect us. It's anger that the open computing and world wide web of the 90s and 2000s has been grifted and coopted by Google and Apple. That computing has been redefined as something proprietary. They've taken advantage of open source and open Internet, and leveraged that to capture and control the market. Software freedoms that enabled their rise are now dying because of these companies. They're making it harder for us to succeed and taking more of the pie for themselves. They got theirs, and now they're putting it under lock and key. Call it envy all you want. It's not fair for computing to be owned by the incumbents. Would you still have this opinion if history had been different and Microsoft's Windows Phone had taken the place of the iPhone? Would you be happy with the Windows Store, Microsoft's 30% fee, Microsoft's design guidelines, etc? Replace everything Apple you own with Microsoft, couple it with the same proprietary stance, and tell me you'd be happy. Take that thought process one step further and disregard the company altogether. It doesn't matter who is doing these things. Apple is immaterial. The behavior is bad and it shouldn't be allowed. This is why the DOJ hammered Microsoft -- rightly so -- and will do the same to Apple.
  - kmlx 6y ago
    > Because if I want my startup to succeed, I have to have an iPhone app. This is false.

paulmd 6y ago

Yes, Apple's control increases user privacy (cf permissions on the Google app store, and how flashlight apps used to demand call log access, contact lists, and of course network access to exfiltrate it all back to the mothership). It's difficult for the HN userset to understand, but a more private, more secure experience is more of a benefit than the ability to install arbitrary unsigned apps. Most normal users don't care about installing the handful of apps that can't pass Apple certification, and it is in fact probably better that they not be on the platform because there are reasons they're being excluded. Epic's fight here is to block that user experience from being allowed in the marketplace. There exist "open platforms", people choose Apple because they want curation. Moreover, Epic is mad because that user experience is winning, there are a significant number of users who prefer curation over the ability to sideload whatever garbage.

judge2020 6y ago

> Of course Apple uses its position to benefit Apple itself as well, but users don't care as long as they got their personal benefits like improved privacy or security. If that comes at a price to other developers, price that those developers would not pay with more open approach, users still don't care. If this is true, then you need to ask the question "should big companies be forced to be more competitive, even if doing so means a good amount of customers will lose privacy and security", and your answer will be entirely one of preference, what you say can't be correct or incorrect.