7 ms·

Ben Shapiro and Dan Bongino, and 'conservative media' are alt-right now? Great journalism here. This doofus author clearly shows what he's about.

p1necone 6y ago
You're going to have to explain why you don't think Ben Shapiro is alt-right, he's basically a poster child for them.
- quercus 6y ago
  Sounds like you don't know the difference between right and alt-right.
- FFRefresh 6y ago
  What does 'alt' mean when added as a prefix to left or right to you? What % of people on the right would you consider alt-right? What % of people on the left would you consider alt-left?
  - lrvick 6y ago
    [deleted]
    - FFRefresh 6y ago
      I disagree, I think the usage and meaning of 'alt' is in fact complicated. I've asked many other people this same question and they've all given different answers. The core underlying theme is that 'alt' gets used as a pejorative towards your outgroup. Your descriptions of the right here are quite uncharitable, which is a strong signal of your biased thinking. You also conveniently didn't answer my question about % of the right you'd classify as 'alt-right' and the % of the left that you'd classify as 'alt-left'. I suspect the reason you chose not to is because of that same bias. It would make clear that you use 'alt' as a pejorative selectively towards your outgroup.
    - tryonenow 6y ago
      This is about as needlessly hyperbolic as claiming that everyone on the left wants to see the US turn to socialism complete with "reeducation" camps for anyone right of center. You lack perspective.
  - danans 6y ago
    > What does 'alt' mean when added as a prefix to left or right to you? Not the GP, but the 'alt' prefix to me seems to invoke the similar usage in the term 'alternative' music like Nirvana, Pearl Jam, etc, which were an 'alternative' to pop music from the 80s and 90s. The prefix suggests a change of type and not just a change of degree. They aren't just "more conservative Republicans". This is why it applies more to the right than the left in today's social discourse, since the spectrum on the left is still more a matter of degree than kind. In the context of the right, this change of type means abandonment of traditional establishment Republican stances like free trade and foreign interventionism in near totality, and the promotion of previously fringe movements within the right like ethnic nationalism (often under the guise of 'economic nationalism').
    - FFRefresh 6y ago
      Thanks for offering a perspective on the right. I do disagree about a change of type not happening on the left. I see a very large rift developing on the left around whether to honor classically liberal values or not. I do think the trends in 'alt' usage are predominately aimed at the right as more of a pejorative towards the outgroup, and less of a descriptive term. You can see a snapshot of the vast disparity in usage here: https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?geo=US&q=Alt-right,alt-left https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?geo=US&q=Alt-right,...
      - derekp7 6y ago
        What I imagined years ago is that the Occupy movement and the 99 percenters would become the Democratic's version of the Republican Tea party. You can kind of see this to a degree in AOC and Sanders, if I understand everything correctly.
    - xupybd 6y ago
      I think you are correct in your definition. But if you are many people use it incorrectly. It's thrown at most conservatives. While most conservatives find ethnic nationalism appalling. That said nationalism is appealing to a large percentage of conservatives.
  - klmadfejno 6y ago
    alt is not an independent modifier you can assume would play a similar role in a different context. Alt-right is just an alternative rightwing movement. My personal take would be that alt right is a rightwing suberversion of traditional american conservatism. In addition to largely white identity politics, there's also a strong push for anti-establishment, and indifference to traditional norms. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alt-right https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alt-right > The term is ill-defined, having been used in different ways by various self-described "alt-rightists", media commentators, and academics. Groups which have been identified as alt-right also espouse white supremacism, white separatism, right-wing populism, anti-immigration, racism, anti-communism, anti-Zionism, antisemitism, Holocaust denial, xenophobia, anti-intellectualism, antifeminism, homophobia, and Islamophobia.
  - NoodleIncident 6y ago
    There isn't a single term used for a political group that you can break down into sub-components and root words to understand what it means. The best you can get will be the origins of the term, but that might no longer be related to how it's used today.
    - FFRefresh 6y ago
      Yeah, my impression is that it's predominantly not used to accurately describe the political leanings of a person or group of people, and it's just a quick modifier that can be used by people to paint the target as an extremist who holds anti-social views. If I were to wager a guess, I'd guess that the targets of the term 'alt-right' would rarely accept that description of their politics. Whereas 'right' or 'conservative' or 'social conservative' or similar terms would have a high acceptance rate for those that are being called it. 'Alt' has become a pejorative in everyday use (at least in the liberal circles that I run in).
      - NoodleIncident 6y ago
        You're still (intentionally?) missing the point. There is no such thing as an "accurate descriptor of political leanings". There are words useful to describe groups of people from the outside, words useful for groups of people use to describe themselves, and sometimes they overlap.
        FFRefresh 6y ago
        I disagree that it isn't possible to accurately describe one's political leanings. I am a proponent of aiming for accuracy when trying to describe other people's politics, and being charitable whenever possible. If I see a group of people using words to describe another group of people in a way that purposely misrepresents them, particularly in a negative way, I think that's something worth calling out. I don't have the nihilistic take that "if you can't 100% accurately describe something, then it's okay to not even try".
- xupybd 6y ago
  Whatever Ben Shapiro is, alt-right or just right of center, he holds views typical of most conservatives. If that means all the U.S. conservatives meet your definition of alt-right, so be it.
  - danans 6y ago
    This. None of these are static categories, and even if Shapiro's litany of X-phobic views were previously 'alt-right', they are now part of the mainstream political right (and its manifestation in the Republican party). As a result I think it's genuinely hard to be a non X-phobic conservative these days.
    - p1necone 6y ago
      This kinda parallels the alt-rock of the 90s as mentioned in other comments. Back then it was called that because it was "alternative" to what was mainstream rock, but over time it eclipsed the mainstream and now most new rock music falls under the "alt-rock" umbrella.
      - danans 6y ago
        To continue with alt-music analogies, I am a big fan of alt-country (bands like Wilco, Son Volt, etc) who were the alternative to the dominant pop-country genre. IIRC in recent years that genre has influenced pop country but never really merged with it.
- millstone 6y ago
  Shapiro is right-wing mainstream conservative, not alt-right.
- red01 6y ago
  The militant Zionism should tip you off he's a Neocon.
endymi0n 6y ago
"He was editor-at-large of Breitbart News between 2012 and 2016. [...] Shapiro is a critic of the alt-right movement." Sounds like a classic case of the "flat-earth society that has members all around the globe". In any case, it doesn't get much more fact free and hypocritical than that.
DSingularity 6y ago
Ben Shapiro is definitely a fascist and most certainly a racist but that doesn’t make him alt-right. What the hell is alt-right anyways? As in, what are the fundamental principles of its ideology?
- FFRefresh 6y ago
  How do you determine who is a fascist? Do you take into account any counter-evidence when making such a deduction?
  - TLightful 6y ago
    Their eyebrows.
  - DSingularity 6y ago
    I’m not throwing the fascist label because he is a right-winger. I’m throwing it because he supports a military which rules over a subset of the civilian population with the merciless boot. And that military rule is the Israeli rule over Palestinians in the occupied territories. That’s why I called him a fascist racist.
- xupybd 6y ago
  I'm honestly surprised to hear you accuse Ben of racism. What stances does he hold that lead you to that conclusion?
  - DSingularity 6y ago
    Read his own words. One tweet [1] is still up about how Israelis “like to build” (settlements) while Arabs like to “bomb and live in sewage”. For your own information, the context is regarding the settlements that Israelis like to build in Palestinian territory. The Palestinian area is depopulated by uzi-wielding settlers and military bulldozers. All countries of the world (including the US) consider these settlements a violation of human rights and international laws. What’s more racist than that? [1] https://twitter.com/benshapiro/status/25712847277?s=21 https://twitter.com/benshapiro/status/25712847277?s=21
lrvick 6y ago
Shapiros history of consistent homophobic, transphobic, islamophobic vitrol sure do seem consistent with everything I hear from people in the alt right movement and validates them. He also claims he is not alt right, not homophobic, and not racist. So there is that.
- kypro 6y ago
  > He also claims he is not alt right, not homophobic, and not racist. So there is that. Would you claim you're not alt-right, homophobic or racist? You seem like the kind of person who would deny all those labels to be honest.
  - lrvick 6y ago
    I probably am a little sexist, homophobic, transphobic, and racist in ways I don't fully realize due to my privileges. Unlike Shapiro however you will be unlikely to find any overtly bigoted content scrolling through my public commentary.
    - cobraetor 6y ago
      Would you consider this person[1] to be transphobic? He is not a conservative and yet holds similar views to that of Shapiro. [1] https://blog.alexgleason.me/gab-block/ https://blog.alexgleason.me/gab-block/
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - macspoofing 6y ago
      You know, it's not OK to be racist, so I'm not sure why you are proud of self-identifying as such. It's not OK even if, as you claim, you grew up with a silver spoon. You know what's in your heart of hearts, so please work on whatever it is that you identified in yourself that makes you hate others for things that they cannot control.
      - 6y ago

p1necone 6y ago

You're going to have to explain why you don't think Ben Shapiro is alt-right, he's basically a poster child for them.

quercus 6y ago
Sounds like you don't know the difference between right and alt-right.
FFRefresh 6y ago
What does 'alt' mean when added as a prefix to left or right to you? What % of people on the right would you consider alt-right? What % of people on the left would you consider alt-left?
- lrvick 6y ago
  [deleted]
  - FFRefresh 6y ago
    I disagree, I think the usage and meaning of 'alt' is in fact complicated. I've asked many other people this same question and they've all given different answers. The core underlying theme is that 'alt' gets used as a pejorative towards your outgroup. Your descriptions of the right here are quite uncharitable, which is a strong signal of your biased thinking. You also conveniently didn't answer my question about % of the right you'd classify as 'alt-right' and the % of the left that you'd classify as 'alt-left'. I suspect the reason you chose not to is because of that same bias. It would make clear that you use 'alt' as a pejorative selectively towards your outgroup.
  - tryonenow 6y ago
    This is about as needlessly hyperbolic as claiming that everyone on the left wants to see the US turn to socialism complete with "reeducation" camps for anyone right of center. You lack perspective.
- danans 6y ago
  > What does 'alt' mean when added as a prefix to left or right to you? Not the GP, but the 'alt' prefix to me seems to invoke the similar usage in the term 'alternative' music like Nirvana, Pearl Jam, etc, which were an 'alternative' to pop music from the 80s and 90s. The prefix suggests a change of type and not just a change of degree. They aren't just "more conservative Republicans". This is why it applies more to the right than the left in today's social discourse, since the spectrum on the left is still more a matter of degree than kind. In the context of the right, this change of type means abandonment of traditional establishment Republican stances like free trade and foreign interventionism in near totality, and the promotion of previously fringe movements within the right like ethnic nationalism (often under the guise of 'economic nationalism').
  - FFRefresh 6y ago
    Thanks for offering a perspective on the right. I do disagree about a change of type not happening on the left. I see a very large rift developing on the left around whether to honor classically liberal values or not. I do think the trends in 'alt' usage are predominately aimed at the right as more of a pejorative towards the outgroup, and less of a descriptive term. You can see a snapshot of the vast disparity in usage here: https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?geo=US&q=Alt-right,alt-left https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?geo=US&q=Alt-right,...
    - derekp7 6y ago
      What I imagined years ago is that the Occupy movement and the 99 percenters would become the Democratic's version of the Republican Tea party. You can kind of see this to a degree in AOC and Sanders, if I understand everything correctly.
  - xupybd 6y ago
    I think you are correct in your definition. But if you are many people use it incorrectly. It's thrown at most conservatives. While most conservatives find ethnic nationalism appalling. That said nationalism is appealing to a large percentage of conservatives.
- klmadfejno 6y ago
  alt is not an independent modifier you can assume would play a similar role in a different context. Alt-right is just an alternative rightwing movement. My personal take would be that alt right is a rightwing suberversion of traditional american conservatism. In addition to largely white identity politics, there's also a strong push for anti-establishment, and indifference to traditional norms. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alt-right https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alt-right > The term is ill-defined, having been used in different ways by various self-described "alt-rightists", media commentators, and academics. Groups which have been identified as alt-right also espouse white supremacism, white separatism, right-wing populism, anti-immigration, racism, anti-communism, anti-Zionism, antisemitism, Holocaust denial, xenophobia, anti-intellectualism, antifeminism, homophobia, and Islamophobia.
- NoodleIncident 6y ago
  There isn't a single term used for a political group that you can break down into sub-components and root words to understand what it means. The best you can get will be the origins of the term, but that might no longer be related to how it's used today.
  - FFRefresh 6y ago
    Yeah, my impression is that it's predominantly not used to accurately describe the political leanings of a person or group of people, and it's just a quick modifier that can be used by people to paint the target as an extremist who holds anti-social views. If I were to wager a guess, I'd guess that the targets of the term 'alt-right' would rarely accept that description of their politics. Whereas 'right' or 'conservative' or 'social conservative' or similar terms would have a high acceptance rate for those that are being called it. 'Alt' has become a pejorative in everyday use (at least in the liberal circles that I run in).
    - NoodleIncident 6y ago
      You're still (intentionally?) missing the point. There is no such thing as an "accurate descriptor of political leanings". There are words useful to describe groups of people from the outside, words useful for groups of people use to describe themselves, and sometimes they overlap.
      - FFRefresh 6y ago
        I disagree that it isn't possible to accurately describe one's political leanings. I am a proponent of aiming for accuracy when trying to describe other people's politics, and being charitable whenever possible. If I see a group of people using words to describe another group of people in a way that purposely misrepresents them, particularly in a negative way, I think that's something worth calling out. I don't have the nihilistic take that "if you can't 100% accurately describe something, then it's okay to not even try".
xupybd 6y ago
Whatever Ben Shapiro is, alt-right or just right of center, he holds views typical of most conservatives. If that means all the U.S. conservatives meet your definition of alt-right, so be it.
- danans 6y ago
  This. None of these are static categories, and even if Shapiro's litany of X-phobic views were previously 'alt-right', they are now part of the mainstream political right (and its manifestation in the Republican party). As a result I think it's genuinely hard to be a non X-phobic conservative these days.
  - p1necone 6y ago
    This kinda parallels the alt-rock of the 90s as mentioned in other comments. Back then it was called that because it was "alternative" to what was mainstream rock, but over time it eclipsed the mainstream and now most new rock music falls under the "alt-rock" umbrella.
    - danans 6y ago
      To continue with alt-music analogies, I am a big fan of alt-country (bands like Wilco, Son Volt, etc) who were the alternative to the dominant pop-country genre. IIRC in recent years that genre has influenced pop country but never really merged with it.
millstone 6y ago
Shapiro is right-wing mainstream conservative, not alt-right.
red01 6y ago
The militant Zionism should tip you off he's a Neocon.

endymi0n 6y ago

"He was editor-at-large of Breitbart News between 2012 and 2016. [...] Shapiro is a critic of the alt-right movement." Sounds like a classic case of the "flat-earth society that has members all around the globe". In any case, it doesn't get much more fact free and hypocritical than that.

DSingularity 6y ago

Ben Shapiro is definitely a fascist and most certainly a racist but that doesn’t make him alt-right. What the hell is alt-right anyways? As in, what are the fundamental principles of its ideology?

FFRefresh 6y ago
How do you determine who is a fascist? Do you take into account any counter-evidence when making such a deduction?
- TLightful 6y ago
  Their eyebrows.
- DSingularity 6y ago
  I’m not throwing the fascist label because he is a right-winger. I’m throwing it because he supports a military which rules over a subset of the civilian population with the merciless boot. And that military rule is the Israeli rule over Palestinians in the occupied territories. That’s why I called him a fascist racist.
xupybd 6y ago
I'm honestly surprised to hear you accuse Ben of racism. What stances does he hold that lead you to that conclusion?
- DSingularity 6y ago
  Read his own words. One tweet [1] is still up about how Israelis “like to build” (settlements) while Arabs like to “bomb and live in sewage”. For your own information, the context is regarding the settlements that Israelis like to build in Palestinian territory. The Palestinian area is depopulated by uzi-wielding settlers and military bulldozers. All countries of the world (including the US) consider these settlements a violation of human rights and international laws. What’s more racist than that? [1] https://twitter.com/benshapiro/status/25712847277?s=21 https://twitter.com/benshapiro/status/25712847277?s=21

lrvick 6y ago

Shapiros history of consistent homophobic, transphobic, islamophobic vitrol sure do seem consistent with everything I hear from people in the alt right movement and validates them. He also claims he is not alt right, not homophobic, and not racist. So there is that.

kypro 6y ago
> He also claims he is not alt right, not homophobic, and not racist. So there is that. Would you claim you're not alt-right, homophobic or racist? You seem like the kind of person who would deny all those labels to be honest.
- lrvick 6y ago
  I probably am a little sexist, homophobic, transphobic, and racist in ways I don't fully realize due to my privileges. Unlike Shapiro however you will be unlikely to find any overtly bigoted content scrolling through my public commentary.
  - cobraetor 6y ago
    Would you consider this person[1] to be transphobic? He is not a conservative and yet holds similar views to that of Shapiro. [1] https://blog.alexgleason.me/gab-block/ https://blog.alexgleason.me/gab-block/
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - macspoofing 6y ago
    You know, it's not OK to be racist, so I'm not sure why you are proud of self-identifying as such. It's not OK even if, as you claim, you grew up with a silver spoon. You know what's in your heart of hearts, so please work on whatever it is that you identified in yourself that makes you hate others for things that they cannot control.
    - 6y ago