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Agree with your last part, but it's an important tenet of medicine that a patient can trust her doctor. A challenge trial run as you described would either have

by runako 6y ago

Agree with your last part, but it's an important tenet of medicine that a patient can trust her doctor. A challenge trial run as you described would either have to be run with no physicians, or with physicians who violate the Hippocratic oath. Either way is going to mar the results.

Closi 6y ago
It don't see how it will make a difference to the quality of the results, as long as good scientific method is followed. With a strict reading of the hippocratic oath, physicians would rarely advise a patient take part in any phase 0/1 medical trial ever (see Theralizumab). In reality, trials need to be carried out to advance medicine and doctors do assist with them alongside researchers. Let's not forget that doctors are present during executions in the USA to give medical support, because the alternative is that people who aren't doctors will have to give medical support. And doctors would never elect to do unnecessary cosmetic surgeries and give ladies very big boobies. I think more benefit comes out of a doctor assisting with a challenge trial than putting even bigger breasts into Cardi B.
- runako 6y ago
  You are correct that vaccine trials are required to meet a high bar. The reason for that is vaccines are not compulsory, so the process for arriving at them matters a great deal. If the process appears marred, healthy people will not take the vaccine and we all suffer. I don't think we want doctors in vaccine trials taking cues from elective cosmetic surgeries or executions.
  - Closi 6y ago
    > I don't think we want doctors in vaccine trials taking cues from elective cosmetic surgeries or executions. I'm just saying that if the Hypocratic oath and system can flex to include executions, it can flex to include clinical trials :) Besides, who is to say that the doctors assisting executions aren't behaving rationally, ethically and trying to reduce suffering compared to what would have happened if they were not around? Maybe these are the kind of ethics you want to consider in this situation - i.e. a consequentialist viewpoint too rather than just the deontological argument.

by runako 6y ago

Closi 6y ago

It don't see how it will make a difference to the quality of the results, as long as good scientific method is followed. With a strict reading of the hippocratic oath, physicians would rarely advise a patient take part in any phase 0/1 medical trial ever (see Theralizumab). In reality, trials need to be carried out to advance medicine and doctors do assist with them alongside researchers. Let's not forget that doctors are present during executions in the USA to give medical support, because the alternative is that people who aren't doctors will have to give medical support. And doctors would never elect to do unnecessary cosmetic surgeries and give ladies very big boobies. I think more benefit comes out of a doctor assisting with a challenge trial than putting even bigger breasts into Cardi B.

runako 6y ago
You are correct that vaccine trials are required to meet a high bar. The reason for that is vaccines are not compulsory, so the process for arriving at them matters a great deal. If the process appears marred, healthy people will not take the vaccine and we all suffer. I don't think we want doctors in vaccine trials taking cues from elective cosmetic surgeries or executions.
- Closi 6y ago
  > I don't think we want doctors in vaccine trials taking cues from elective cosmetic surgeries or executions. I'm just saying that if the Hypocratic oath and system can flex to include executions, it can flex to include clinical trials :) Besides, who is to say that the doctors assisting executions aren't behaving rationally, ethically and trying to reduce suffering compared to what would have happened if they were not around? Maybe these are the kind of ethics you want to consider in this situation - i.e. a consequentialist viewpoint too rather than just the deontological argument.