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I was thinking along the lines that someone will come along and eat their lunch once patents expire so they won't be able to reap the benefits of scaling. To m

by davemp 6y ago

I was thinking along the lines that someone will come along and eat their lunch once patents expire so they won't be able to reap the benefits of scaling. To me, it would make sense to invent in capturing a larger market if e-ink believed that they could compete at scale.

wahern 6y ago
E-Ink seems to spend all their time filing new patents: https://patents.justia.com/assignee/e-ink-holdings-inc https://patents.justia.com/assignee/e-ink-holdings-inc Because there's no real market, the only company "innovating" on the original technology is E-Ink. With a 20-year head start locking down iterative improvements, the technology may never get out of the tarpit.
- robinsoh 6y ago
  I'm working in the display industry. I've never heard anyone in our industry talk about this "tarpit" or "locking down". Could you explain exactly what you mean or what you are claiming?
  - wahern 6y ago
    Like many I just assume that the potential marginal profits are too thin to overcome the royalties demanded and the transactional costs of negotiating with E Ink. The market is indeed small, trying to grow it by scaling production is speculative at best, and there are plenty of other investment opportunities. So even if E Ink's royalty and others demands are "reasonable", they might still easily impose too much of a barrier to invite any interest. This dynamic would only be compounded by E Ink apparently spending considerable effort securing its patent position for the indefinite future. There's little potential to achieve a demanding, independent market position short of buying E Ink. The software industry is a great example. It doesn't matter how nominally low commercial software license prices are (and were); the amount of innovation and productivity unleashed by gratis FOSS is incalculably greater than would have ever been possible otherwise. And it inured to commercial products and services just as much as to users directly using FOSS. Even the smallest amount of friction at various points can turn interest away given how transactional costs can multiply, and given opportunity costs. An explosion of diversity and emergence of a rich ecosystem is often a prerequisite to creating even the most speculative market potential. That said, I take your point. It is all just an assumption, and I don't have any evidence. Thank you for pointing that out, challenging me, and forcing me to take reconsider my opinion.

by davemp 6y ago

wahern 6y ago

E-Ink seems to spend all their time filing new patents: https://patents.justia.com/assignee/e-ink-holdings-inc https://patents.justia.com/assignee/e-ink-holdings-inc Because there's no real market, the only company "innovating" on the original technology is E-Ink. With a 20-year head start locking down iterative improvements, the technology may never get out of the tarpit.

robinsoh 6y ago
I'm working in the display industry. I've never heard anyone in our industry talk about this "tarpit" or "locking down". Could you explain exactly what you mean or what you are claiming?
- wahern 6y ago
  Like many I just assume that the potential marginal profits are too thin to overcome the royalties demanded and the transactional costs of negotiating with E Ink. The market is indeed small, trying to grow it by scaling production is speculative at best, and there are plenty of other investment opportunities. So even if E Ink's royalty and others demands are "reasonable", they might still easily impose too much of a barrier to invite any interest. This dynamic would only be compounded by E Ink apparently spending considerable effort securing its patent position for the indefinite future. There's little potential to achieve a demanding, independent market position short of buying E Ink. The software industry is a great example. It doesn't matter how nominally low commercial software license prices are (and were); the amount of innovation and productivity unleashed by gratis FOSS is incalculably greater than would have ever been possible otherwise. And it inured to commercial products and services just as much as to users directly using FOSS. Even the smallest amount of friction at various points can turn interest away given how transactional costs can multiply, and given opportunity costs. An explosion of diversity and emergence of a rich ecosystem is often a prerequisite to creating even the most speculative market potential. That said, I take your point. It is all just an assumption, and I don't have any evidence. Thank you for pointing that out, challenging me, and forcing me to take reconsider my opinion.