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Except as soon as it becomes a remotely feasible action (with simple instructions) for the general consumer, a bunch of businesses will start requiring their us

Except as soon as it becomes a remotely feasible action (with simple instructions) for the general consumer, a bunch of businesses will start requiring their users to disable "default Grandma mode". Imagine onboarding for Netflix including a pleasantly designed screen saying "Before you can use Netflix, you must Enable Third-party Stores. Go to Settings > Privacy..." If that comes to pass, there will be no highly-guarded, highly-moderated mobile OS to choose from. Apple has tremendous resources and expends tremendous resources, under pressure of tremendous incentives, to moderate it well. Do you think Third-party app stores will be moderated better or worse on average? Not just with respect to content decisions, but privacy, security and the works. There is a very reasonable case that having a solidly-guarded and moderated mobile OS as an option in the market is good for consumers. It may boggle the tech-savvy mind, but another way of reading the incredibly successful 10 year history of this horribly locked-down, oppressive OS is that the market has spoken. And it's happy.

pkulak 6y ago
I've noticed that if something is possible, your children or grandmother with do it, somehow. I hand out Chromebooks to relatives because of the low support requirements, and yet STILL every time I get one of those things back there are dozens of outright dangerous extensions installed. These are folks who know how to click on the icon for their email and that's it, and yet the garbage finds a way in. It's like trying to seal your basement against water in the everglades.
- MKinley 6y ago
  I agree, and I believe this is in part because it is these kind of people that malware is targeted at. We, the tech savvy, will be smart enough to not do something because we pay attention at permissions or what extensions, programs, tools, etc are doing or want to do. The tech illiterate still do know how to use Google, search for what they want to do, click on the first thing that looks like it will do what they want, download and use it. If it doesn't do what they want, it remains there and they go and repeat these steps until they find exactly what program, etc does what they want, all while the bad ones remain installed, doing bad things. My wife fell into this category when we first met, after I began teaching her even just some basics and she learned to question things and be more careful, I haven't needed to "diagnose" her computer in a long time (I still do regular maintenance, but irregular issues never come up anymore). So I would say that education is the biggest key in this regard, teach them to start with a zero trust model.
  - bzzzt 6y ago
    Tech savvyness and paying attention will not save you when you're bombarded with dark patterns all the time. Even then, I prefer not to be one click away from losing my privacy, money or being bombarded with ads.
    - MKinley 6y ago
      If I am understanding you correctly, dark patterns are meant to be a psychological hit to you, it's not tech savvyness but clarity of mind and knowing that most every big business out there wants to make money off you and will do anything to get that money. This is a huge reason I am not on Facebook (among others, including the standard ones), and other social media platforms. I investigate claims myself, and do not trust what is thrown at me. Perhaps this is the biggest reason dark patterns have never worked on me. Also keeping a strong privacy/security setup that you don't compromise on helps too.
- smichel17 6y ago
  It's totally possible to have both: on first init, have the user choose whether they want to prevent installing apps from 3rd party stores. Changing this setting requires performing a factory reset. Problem solved. If you want the walled garden, opt in at the beginning, and now your children/grandmother are safe as long as they don't literally reset their phone, wiping all their pictures/apps/whatever.
  - Siira 6y ago
    Or even sell two different physical models. This is not a hard problem at all.
JumpCrisscross 6y ago
> as soon as it becomes a remotely feasible action (with simple instructions) for the general consumer, a bunch of businesses will start requiring their users to disable "default Grandma mode" Zero chance Facebook doesn't do this with Instagram. Zero chance large employers don't do this with their surveillance software.
- snowwrestler 6y ago
  Facebook already got caught doing this. Apple revoked their enterprise cert and all their internal iOS tools stopped working. https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2019/01/facebook-and-google-offered-gift-cards-for-root-level-access-to-ios-users-data/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2019/01/facebook-and-google-...
tveita 6y ago
> Imagine onboarding for Netflix including a pleasantly designed screen saying "Before you can use Netflix, you must Enable Third-party Stores. Go to Settings > Privacy..." From Netflix' perspective that still adds considerable UX friction, and some percentage of potential customers will drop off. At what percentage cut is it better for them to just stay in the Apple store? 10%? 5%? 2%? At any of those rates Apple still makes boatloads of money.
ahiknsr 6y ago
>Except as soon as it becomes a remotely feasible action (with simple instructions) for the general consumer, a bunch of businesses will start requiring their users to disable "default Grandma mode". Android already allows side-loading and i don't think any popular app out there is asking users to enable side-loading to install their app. Why do you think the situation would be any different with iOS app store?
- cmdli 6y ago
  To be fair, Fortnite did try to get their players to use sideloading to get around the 30% cut Google took. With Apple's more aggresive consumer protection stance, it wouldn't be surprising for more companies to take that step.
  - wernercd 6y ago
    > aggressive consumer protection stance Aggressive Protection? Sounds like the Mafia. Protection, paid for by you whether you want it or not. Pay the 30% or the mafia's going to break your kneecaps.
    - leadingthenet 6y ago
      Don’t be ridiculous, it’s not like Apple’s forcing anyone to publish software on the App Store. Or buy any of their hardware products, for that matter... People and organisations do it because it’s highly profitable, and it’s highly profitable because it’s a trusted and curated platform (unlike the competition). Pretending this is anything like the mafia is childish.
      - josephg 6y ago
        The problem is a lack of detailed choice. I use a lot of Apple’s products because I think they’re generally decent, but it seems like right now I can only make one choice with my phone - Apple or Google. But buying an iPhone not an android phone doesn’t mean I want Apple to control my life. Some examples: I hate it how there’s no adult content allowed in the App Store. Or how if I build my own version of Signal, I have to disable push notifications and things because I haven’t paid apple enough money or something. I hate that last I checked, I can’t buy books in the audible app. If my camera breaks, I apparently can’t get it fixed by anyone except Apple. I hate how Apple charges my bank for the privilege of using the NFC chip in my phone, which I paid for. It’s ridiculous to demand that Epic games makes their own phone if they want to sell me their game. Ideologically, this is capitalism. But capitalism works best for everyone when there’s healthy competition. Wielding their superior phones to enforce a monopoly in other parts of the ecosystem is anticompetitive and anti consumer. And I’m glad someone is finally standing up to them.
908B64B197 6y ago
I would trust Netflix. Other companies? Not so much. The App Store (and reduced API surface) was a true revolution for the customer. Remember every app installer requiring admin privilege on Windows and creating it's service that runs at startup checking for updates, littering the registry and sometimes installing drivers? All gone from the App Store. If the app maker doesn't like it he can go target another platform. Even on Android, the amount of useless software side loaded by the manufacturer is mind boggling.
- herecomestracer 6y ago
  > I would trust Netflix. Other companies? Not so much. Missing the point. Sure, many users will trust the Netflix app, but we only need one trustworthy app (like Netflix) to open the gate for all other kinds of untrustworthy apps to also skip the check.
  - herbst 6y ago
    How so? Android is still asking every single time you install a non market app, spooky enough that nether my mum nor my gf consider clicking proceed without asking someone if they should.
    - vladvasiliu 6y ago
      Because it's a continuum. Say you trust Netflix "absolutely". So you go ahead and click through the "spooky warnings". This sets a precedent. Now you're in the situation "I've already done this, nothing happened. But of course, I shouldn't do it all the time. There's a reason the warning is there." Now you want to try out this other app. The company doesn't seem shady, but they're new, they don't yet have the reputation Netflix has. So you don't trust it "absolutely", but "pretty much". OK, you go ahead, just for this one app. Now you're even more used to clicking through the warning. Repeat a few times. Now you're installing totally_not_malware.apk. What could go wrong? You've already installed a bunch of apps this way with no issue. Plus this one app clearly isn't malware, it says so in the title! Also, all your friends are using it and you don't want to be left out.
2OEH8eoCRo0 6y ago
>Imagine onboarding for Netflix including a pleasantly designed screen saying "Before you can use Netflix, you must Enable Third-party Stores. Go to Settings > Privacy..." Then we deal with that later?
- leadingthenet 6y ago
  It’s already being dealt with. The current arrangement is the solution.
nine_k 6y ago
There should not be a single switch to bulk-enable all third-party stores. It should be per store, with a bunch of authentication info from the store, likely coming from its TLS certificate. It's the same situation as with "third-party" package stores in your favorite Linux distro. Say, on Ubuntu you add a particular PPA, you got to see its PGP signature, etc. So in the Netflix case, it will be a Netflix store, secured by a DNS + TLS lookup, and limited to what Netflix has to offer. But consider differently curated stores, some maybe even requiring a subscription fee to support the operation, discovering, checking, and maybe suggesting apps in different areas: from as wide as art apps or music creation apps, to as narrow as high-quality puzzle game apps. (Of course, an app might be available through more than one store.)
malwrar 6y ago
> the market has spoken. And it's happy. When has the market been given a choice? App Stores have been the only way to get software on iPhones since they were first released. I can't even install an alternative OS on my iPhone, and jailbreaking seems to have become less accessible now too. How do we know what experience is more competitive if competition isn't allowed to blossom? Maybe the market would value an alternative App Store that is able to compete on moderation and/or the 30% developer tax status quo? > If that comes to pass, there will be no highly-guarded, highly-moderated mobile OS to choose from. If the market wants this kind of experience, then surely it will continue to exist no?
- WillPostForFood 6y ago
  When has the market been given a choice? The choice now is between Apple and Android ecosystems. The best Android phones have comparable hardware to the iPhone, so people are choosing based on software, price, and status.
  - komali2 6y ago
    Why not force Apple to behave ethically, on top of it? Give the people even more choice! Clearly there are strong arguments for the iphone if people are willing to give up software freedom to own one. As an Android user I'd love to hop over and find out what the buzz is about. But of course, I can't justify buying a computer that I can't even install software of my choice on. This is a great place for regulatory intervention to act for the good of the people. I don't really care about the good of Apple. It is the world's most highly valued company, right? It'll be fine.
    - llukas 6y ago
      Why do you want all ecosystems to conform to your beliefs and implement your vision of how choice need to be made? Librem 5 or Pinephone is a thing as well.
      - komali2 6y ago
summerlight 6y ago
> a bunch of businesses will start requiring their users to disable "default Grandma mode". Imagine onboarding for Netflix including a pleasantly designed screen saying "Before you can use Netflix, you must Enable Third-party Stores. Go to Settings > Privacy..." In Android, Epic (and probably tens of ISP and carriers) actually tried that strategy and miserably failed.
- Fogest 6y ago
  Exactly, Epic tried to get people to install their Fortnite app on Android via their apk from their website but they ended up just putting it on the appstore because not enough people were doing it. Likely because of the extra work and "scary" warnings Android gives you when you try and do this. So yeah this method does work to keep people using the more "safe" options while also letting others have more freedom with their device if they desire.
userbinator 6y ago
It may boggle the tech-savvy mind, but another way of reading the incredibly successful 10 year history of this horribly locked-down, oppressive OS is that the market has spoken. And it's happy. Don't forget that the market was pushed that way by Apple's highly influential marketing. People didn't really choose to give up their freedom of their own free will --- they were persuaded to, and only found out about the downsides afterwards.
- gretch 6y ago
  Marketing isn't magic. You can't just take anything and sell it uphill. If you could, why would anyone try to innovate on any level? Why are software engineers and product people paid more than marketing people at the same company? Is Apple > Blackberry just because Apple had better marketing? Or Nokia? On the other hand, if you have something genuinely desirable, then yeah marketing help people find that thing.
  - hanselot 6y ago
    If marketing isn't magic, prey tell how something as user-hostile as the airpods exist.
- pjanoman 6y ago
  Users are completely free to not use an Apple product. They have lost no freedom of their own will. Users choose this ecosystem over many other options.
  - Siira 6y ago
    People in North Korea have not lost their freedom. They can choose from the many options available to them, including going to South Korea. It’s been observed that most do not choose so.
Silhouette 6y ago
If that comes to pass, there will be no highly-guarded, highly-moderated mobile OS to choose from. But we're not talking about changing the operating system, are we? We're talking about opening up the marketplace. If you're relying on perfect/near-perfect moderation of every application in your marketplace to protect your users from abuse by developers, that already seems like asking the impossible. The operating system should have a robust security and privacy model that protects users, regardless of what software they run on it. But if you have that, the source of the software matters a lot less, and any argument based on restricting distribution to authorised channels will be weakened. Conflating these two fundamentally different issues might be convenient for Apple's PR or legal departments, but it's still obscuring how a customer's device is being restricted in ways not necessarily in that customer's favour.
Osiris 6y ago
This hasn't happened on Android where third party stores and side loading are available and have been since the beginning.
- quenix 6y ago
  What? This has most definitely been happening on Android for almost a decade. That app ecosystem is a mess.

pkulak 6y ago

I've noticed that if something is possible, your children or grandmother with do it, somehow. I hand out Chromebooks to relatives because of the low support requirements, and yet STILL every time I get one of those things back there are dozens of outright dangerous extensions installed. These are folks who know how to click on the icon for their email and that's it, and yet the garbage finds a way in. It's like trying to seal your basement against water in the everglades.

MKinley 6y ago
I agree, and I believe this is in part because it is these kind of people that malware is targeted at. We, the tech savvy, will be smart enough to not do something because we pay attention at permissions or what extensions, programs, tools, etc are doing or want to do. The tech illiterate still do know how to use Google, search for what they want to do, click on the first thing that looks like it will do what they want, download and use it. If it doesn't do what they want, it remains there and they go and repeat these steps until they find exactly what program, etc does what they want, all while the bad ones remain installed, doing bad things. My wife fell into this category when we first met, after I began teaching her even just some basics and she learned to question things and be more careful, I haven't needed to "diagnose" her computer in a long time (I still do regular maintenance, but irregular issues never come up anymore). So I would say that education is the biggest key in this regard, teach them to start with a zero trust model.
- bzzzt 6y ago
  Tech savvyness and paying attention will not save you when you're bombarded with dark patterns all the time. Even then, I prefer not to be one click away from losing my privacy, money or being bombarded with ads.
  - MKinley 6y ago
    If I am understanding you correctly, dark patterns are meant to be a psychological hit to you, it's not tech savvyness but clarity of mind and knowing that most every big business out there wants to make money off you and will do anything to get that money. This is a huge reason I am not on Facebook (among others, including the standard ones), and other social media platforms. I investigate claims myself, and do not trust what is thrown at me. Perhaps this is the biggest reason dark patterns have never worked on me. Also keeping a strong privacy/security setup that you don't compromise on helps too.
smichel17 6y ago
It's totally possible to have both: on first init, have the user choose whether they want to prevent installing apps from 3rd party stores. Changing this setting requires performing a factory reset. Problem solved. If you want the walled garden, opt in at the beginning, and now your children/grandmother are safe as long as they don't literally reset their phone, wiping all their pictures/apps/whatever.
- Siira 6y ago
  Or even sell two different physical models. This is not a hard problem at all.

JumpCrisscross 6y ago

> as soon as it becomes a remotely feasible action (with simple instructions) for the general consumer, a bunch of businesses will start requiring their users to disable "default Grandma mode" Zero chance Facebook doesn't do this with Instagram. Zero chance large employers don't do this with their surveillance software.

snowwrestler 6y ago
Facebook already got caught doing this. Apple revoked their enterprise cert and all their internal iOS tools stopped working. https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2019/01/facebook-and-google-offered-gift-cards-for-root-level-access-to-ios-users-data/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2019/01/facebook-and-google-...

tveita 6y ago

> Imagine onboarding for Netflix including a pleasantly designed screen saying "Before you can use Netflix, you must Enable Third-party Stores. Go to Settings > Privacy..." From Netflix' perspective that still adds considerable UX friction, and some percentage of potential customers will drop off. At what percentage cut is it better for them to just stay in the Apple store? 10%? 5%? 2%? At any of those rates Apple still makes boatloads of money.

ahiknsr 6y ago

>Except as soon as it becomes a remotely feasible action (with simple instructions) for the general consumer, a bunch of businesses will start requiring their users to disable "default Grandma mode". Android already allows side-loading and i don't think any popular app out there is asking users to enable side-loading to install their app. Why do you think the situation would be any different with iOS app store?

cmdli 6y ago
To be fair, Fortnite did try to get their players to use sideloading to get around the 30% cut Google took. With Apple's more aggresive consumer protection stance, it wouldn't be surprising for more companies to take that step.
- wernercd 6y ago
  > aggressive consumer protection stance Aggressive Protection? Sounds like the Mafia. Protection, paid for by you whether you want it or not. Pay the 30% or the mafia's going to break your kneecaps.
  - leadingthenet 6y ago
    Don’t be ridiculous, it’s not like Apple’s forcing anyone to publish software on the App Store. Or buy any of their hardware products, for that matter... People and organisations do it because it’s highly profitable, and it’s highly profitable because it’s a trusted and curated platform (unlike the competition). Pretending this is anything like the mafia is childish.
    - josephg 6y ago
      The problem is a lack of detailed choice. I use a lot of Apple’s products because I think they’re generally decent, but it seems like right now I can only make one choice with my phone - Apple or Google. But buying an iPhone not an android phone doesn’t mean I want Apple to control my life. Some examples: I hate it how there’s no adult content allowed in the App Store. Or how if I build my own version of Signal, I have to disable push notifications and things because I haven’t paid apple enough money or something. I hate that last I checked, I can’t buy books in the audible app. If my camera breaks, I apparently can’t get it fixed by anyone except Apple. I hate how Apple charges my bank for the privilege of using the NFC chip in my phone, which I paid for. It’s ridiculous to demand that Epic games makes their own phone if they want to sell me their game. Ideologically, this is capitalism. But capitalism works best for everyone when there’s healthy competition. Wielding their superior phones to enforce a monopoly in other parts of the ecosystem is anticompetitive and anti consumer. And I’m glad someone is finally standing up to them.

908B64B197 6y ago

I would trust Netflix. Other companies? Not so much. The App Store (and reduced API surface) was a true revolution for the customer. Remember every app installer requiring admin privilege on Windows and creating it's service that runs at startup checking for updates, littering the registry and sometimes installing drivers? All gone from the App Store. If the app maker doesn't like it he can go target another platform. Even on Android, the amount of useless software side loaded by the manufacturer is mind boggling.

herecomestracer 6y ago
> I would trust Netflix. Other companies? Not so much. Missing the point. Sure, many users will trust the Netflix app, but we only need one trustworthy app (like Netflix) to open the gate for all other kinds of untrustworthy apps to also skip the check.
- herbst 6y ago
  How so? Android is still asking every single time you install a non market app, spooky enough that nether my mum nor my gf consider clicking proceed without asking someone if they should.
  - vladvasiliu 6y ago
    Because it's a continuum. Say you trust Netflix "absolutely". So you go ahead and click through the "spooky warnings". This sets a precedent. Now you're in the situation "I've already done this, nothing happened. But of course, I shouldn't do it all the time. There's a reason the warning is there." Now you want to try out this other app. The company doesn't seem shady, but they're new, they don't yet have the reputation Netflix has. So you don't trust it "absolutely", but "pretty much". OK, you go ahead, just for this one app. Now you're even more used to clicking through the warning. Repeat a few times. Now you're installing totally_not_malware.apk. What could go wrong? You've already installed a bunch of apps this way with no issue. Plus this one app clearly isn't malware, it says so in the title! Also, all your friends are using it and you don't want to be left out.

2OEH8eoCRo0 6y ago

>Imagine onboarding for Netflix including a pleasantly designed screen saying "Before you can use Netflix, you must Enable Third-party Stores. Go to Settings > Privacy..." Then we deal with that later?

leadingthenet 6y ago
It’s already being dealt with. The current arrangement is the solution.

nine_k 6y ago

There should not be a single switch to bulk-enable all third-party stores. It should be per store, with a bunch of authentication info from the store, likely coming from its TLS certificate. It's the same situation as with "third-party" package stores in your favorite Linux distro. Say, on Ubuntu you add a particular PPA, you got to see its PGP signature, etc. So in the Netflix case, it will be a Netflix store, secured by a DNS + TLS lookup, and limited to what Netflix has to offer. But consider differently curated stores, some maybe even requiring a subscription fee to support the operation, discovering, checking, and maybe suggesting apps in different areas: from as wide as art apps or music creation apps, to as narrow as high-quality puzzle game apps. (Of course, an app might be available through more than one store.)

malwrar 6y ago

> the market has spoken. And it's happy. When has the market been given a choice? App Stores have been the only way to get software on iPhones since they were first released. I can't even install an alternative OS on my iPhone, and jailbreaking seems to have become less accessible now too. How do we know what experience is more competitive if competition isn't allowed to blossom? Maybe the market would value an alternative App Store that is able to compete on moderation and/or the 30% developer tax status quo? > If that comes to pass, there will be no highly-guarded, highly-moderated mobile OS to choose from. If the market wants this kind of experience, then surely it will continue to exist no?

WillPostForFood 6y ago
When has the market been given a choice? The choice now is between Apple and Android ecosystems. The best Android phones have comparable hardware to the iPhone, so people are choosing based on software, price, and status.
- komali2 6y ago
  Why not force Apple to behave ethically, on top of it? Give the people even more choice! Clearly there are strong arguments for the iphone if people are willing to give up software freedom to own one. As an Android user I'd love to hop over and find out what the buzz is about. But of course, I can't justify buying a computer that I can't even install software of my choice on. This is a great place for regulatory intervention to act for the good of the people. I don't really care about the good of Apple. It is the world's most highly valued company, right? It'll be fine.
  - llukas 6y ago
    Why do you want all ecosystems to conform to your beliefs and implement your vision of how choice need to be made? Librem 5 or Pinephone is a thing as well.
    - komali2 6y ago

summerlight 6y ago

> a bunch of businesses will start requiring their users to disable "default Grandma mode". Imagine onboarding for Netflix including a pleasantly designed screen saying "Before you can use Netflix, you must Enable Third-party Stores. Go to Settings > Privacy..." In Android, Epic (and probably tens of ISP and carriers) actually tried that strategy and miserably failed.

Fogest 6y ago
Exactly, Epic tried to get people to install their Fortnite app on Android via their apk from their website but they ended up just putting it on the appstore because not enough people were doing it. Likely because of the extra work and "scary" warnings Android gives you when you try and do this. So yeah this method does work to keep people using the more "safe" options while also letting others have more freedom with their device if they desire.

userbinator 6y ago

It may boggle the tech-savvy mind, but another way of reading the incredibly successful 10 year history of this horribly locked-down, oppressive OS is that the market has spoken. And it's happy. Don't forget that the market was pushed that way by Apple's highly influential marketing. People didn't really choose to give up their freedom of their own free will --- they were persuaded to, and only found out about the downsides afterwards.

gretch 6y ago
Marketing isn't magic. You can't just take anything and sell it uphill. If you could, why would anyone try to innovate on any level? Why are software engineers and product people paid more than marketing people at the same company? Is Apple > Blackberry just because Apple had better marketing? Or Nokia? On the other hand, if you have something genuinely desirable, then yeah marketing help people find that thing.
- hanselot 6y ago
  If marketing isn't magic, prey tell how something as user-hostile as the airpods exist.
pjanoman 6y ago
Users are completely free to not use an Apple product. They have lost no freedom of their own will. Users choose this ecosystem over many other options.
- Siira 6y ago
  People in North Korea have not lost their freedom. They can choose from the many options available to them, including going to South Korea. It’s been observed that most do not choose so.

Silhouette 6y ago

If that comes to pass, there will be no highly-guarded, highly-moderated mobile OS to choose from. But we're not talking about changing the operating system, are we? We're talking about opening up the marketplace. If you're relying on perfect/near-perfect moderation of every application in your marketplace to protect your users from abuse by developers, that already seems like asking the impossible. The operating system should have a robust security and privacy model that protects users, regardless of what software they run on it. But if you have that, the source of the software matters a lot less, and any argument based on restricting distribution to authorised channels will be weakened. Conflating these two fundamentally different issues might be convenient for Apple's PR or legal departments, but it's still obscuring how a customer's device is being restricted in ways not necessarily in that customer's favour.

Osiris 6y ago

This hasn't happened on Android where third party stores and side loading are available and have been since the beginning.

quenix 6y ago
What? This has most definitely been happening on Android for almost a decade. That app ecosystem is a mess.