34 ms·

The entitlement is all over; talking about entitled employees keeps us from turning our attentions elsewhere. Because then we'd have to ask bigger questions and

The entitlement is all over; talking about entitled employees keeps us from turning our attentions elsewhere. Because then we'd have to ask bigger questions and oh boy, our heads may begin to hurt. Let us not forget that industry heads have colluded to suppress pay for engineers. Let us not forget that in general, executives act as though we should be grateful for our pay, rather than being remunerated for building the systems that pour money into their bank accounts. Their compensation is a fact of life, just the way it is. Ours is a handout from the generous leadership team to the undeserving peons. Even the "just a job" framing is a form of entitlement; I should not have employees who simply do a job for a wage, they should really care about that job. And if they have moved from a place of really caring to simply "doing a job", that isn't the fault of leadership or a symptom of the organization. Those people are just, you know, entitled.

deckard1 6y ago
There is definitely more to be said about this dichotomy between the Really Care vs. Doing A Job. The large tech companies are looking for young blood that also happens to be incredibly naive. They are the clueless, in the Gervais Principle[1]. Basically, idiot savants. In addition to colluding to suppress pay, here are ways they optimize for youth and naivety: - They call their HQs a "campus". They create an environment that emulates a university setting. Tourists flock to these "campuses" much like university prospects touring a university. Foosball tables, beanbag chairs, hip decor, etc. It's Peter Pan never-grow-up bullshit. - Leet code interviews. If you're already in your career or have a family (or even a social life), you don't have the hundreds of hours to study. This prevents people from job hopping (salary suppression) and filters out people of a certain age and seniority or those that aren't willing to die for the company. - Company "culture". Netflix has an entire document on this. It's practically a cult. I've had conversations with senior and director-level Facebook employees and the way they light up when talking about things Zuckerberg says or does is, frankly, creeping me out. There is an indocrination program in just about every startup today, that mimics what the FAANGs do. I think it's time someone said it: your trendy corporate "culture" is a soul-sucking vampire on the surface of your rent-seeking, data-hoarding, privacy-invading ad company pretending to be anything but an ad company. If you ask me, if someone "Really Cares" about working at either Facebook or Google, then something is fundamentally off with that person. Like someone gleefully working at Philip Morris. If a person works at Facebook and admits they are a mercenary, that's at least an understandable position. I might not like you any more, but at least I know you're not totally insane. [1] https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-or-the-office-according-to-the-office/ https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-...
- auggierose 6y ago
  It's too bad she won't live, but then again, who does?!
- draw_down 6y ago
  I don't really agree with any of this
- igorstellar 6y ago
  You're really referring to these generalization structures like Gervais principle which should be considered at least as a sarcasm? There is nothing wrong with people who care to work for companies Google, I know many and I'm one of them. Your comparison with Philip Morris is way off, Google produces so many things at once serving so many people and communities every day. Honestly, your comment reads as if it was written by burnt out corporate worker – very negative and arrogant.
  - ragall 6y ago
    I'm a Googler and I agree with him: most of what Google does is to spy on people under the guise of "organizing the world's information". It's creepy and hopefully user tracking together with behavioral ads will soon be made illegal at least in the EU. Then there's a handful of products that are self-sustaining and don't exist merely to suck data into the Ads models: GSuite, Cloud, and a handful of really minor ones
- igorstellar 6y ago
  I'm actually surprised by amount of hate to FAANG people here at HN. It's like each and every one of them contributed to each and every worst case that happened to the company. Many of us are actually doing things to change for better inside of the company. If you leave you can't fix things any more.
- hnick 6y ago
  Naive usually, but sometimes they just have more energy and less accumulated mental clutter (bills and life concerns). I cared more when I started work because I had my hands on the code and logs and could fix things quickly. This kind of agency was empowering even in an industry I didn't care about. Solving problems was fun. Now we have layers of bureaucracy, helpdesk tickets take weeks to return basic information that I no longer have access to, I don't know the names of anyone there because we must work with The System and not individuals, and we have frequent outages which seem to result in no fundamental fixes or changes. It's a culture of mediocrity and I can't see extra effort being rewarded (intrinsically and extrinsically) anymore. The issue of course is that I now have a lot of experience in one place with older tools and that doesn't transfer well. So keep this in mind, kids.

deckard1 6y ago

There is definitely more to be said about this dichotomy between the Really Care vs. Doing A Job. The large tech companies are looking for young blood that also happens to be incredibly naive. They are the clueless, in the Gervais Principle[1]. Basically, idiot savants. In addition to colluding to suppress pay, here are ways they optimize for youth and naivety: - They call their HQs a "campus". They create an environment that emulates a university setting. Tourists flock to these "campuses" much like university prospects touring a university. Foosball tables, beanbag chairs, hip decor, etc. It's Peter Pan never-grow-up bullshit. - Leet code interviews. If you're already in your career or have a family (or even a social life), you don't have the hundreds of hours to study. This prevents people from job hopping (salary suppression) and filters out people of a certain age and seniority or those that aren't willing to die for the company. - Company "culture". Netflix has an entire document on this. It's practically a cult. I've had conversations with senior and director-level Facebook employees and the way they light up when talking about things Zuckerberg says or does is, frankly, creeping me out. There is an indocrination program in just about every startup today, that mimics what the FAANGs do. I think it's time someone said it: your trendy corporate "culture" is a soul-sucking vampire on the surface of your rent-seeking, data-hoarding, privacy-invading ad company pretending to be anything but an ad company. If you ask me, if someone "Really Cares" about working at either Facebook or Google, then something is fundamentally off with that person. Like someone gleefully working at Philip Morris. If a person works at Facebook and admits they are a mercenary, that's at least an understandable position. I might not like you any more, but at least I know you're not totally insane. [1] https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-or-the-office-according-to-the-office/ https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-...

auggierose 6y ago
It's too bad she won't live, but then again, who does?!
draw_down 6y ago
I don't really agree with any of this
igorstellar 6y ago
You're really referring to these generalization structures like Gervais principle which should be considered at least as a sarcasm? There is nothing wrong with people who care to work for companies Google, I know many and I'm one of them. Your comparison with Philip Morris is way off, Google produces so many things at once serving so many people and communities every day. Honestly, your comment reads as if it was written by burnt out corporate worker – very negative and arrogant.
- ragall 6y ago
  I'm a Googler and I agree with him: most of what Google does is to spy on people under the guise of "organizing the world's information". It's creepy and hopefully user tracking together with behavioral ads will soon be made illegal at least in the EU. Then there's a handful of products that are self-sustaining and don't exist merely to suck data into the Ads models: GSuite, Cloud, and a handful of really minor ones
igorstellar 6y ago
I'm actually surprised by amount of hate to FAANG people here at HN. It's like each and every one of them contributed to each and every worst case that happened to the company. Many of us are actually doing things to change for better inside of the company. If you leave you can't fix things any more.
hnick 6y ago
Naive usually, but sometimes they just have more energy and less accumulated mental clutter (bills and life concerns). I cared more when I started work because I had my hands on the code and logs and could fix things quickly. This kind of agency was empowering even in an industry I didn't care about. Solving problems was fun. Now we have layers of bureaucracy, helpdesk tickets take weeks to return basic information that I no longer have access to, I don't know the names of anyone there because we must work with The System and not individuals, and we have frequent outages which seem to result in no fundamental fixes or changes. It's a culture of mediocrity and I can't see extra effort being rewarded (intrinsically and extrinsically) anymore. The issue of course is that I now have a lot of experience in one place with older tools and that doesn't transfer well. So keep this in mind, kids.