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As opposed to Developers not having the choice to distribute their own app stores? There is no solution to this problem that benefits everyone perfectly. There

by 015a 6y ago

As opposed to Developers not having the choice to distribute their own app stores? There is no solution to this problem that benefits everyone perfectly. There are only solutions which are better than the solution we have today. Actually, there is one near-perfect solution; Apple reduces their cut to ~5% and stops enforcing their insane rules. But that's not happening. You, and many others in this thread, are blaming Epic, Steam, Blizzard, etc. That's fundamentally flawed thinking. All of this is Apple's fault. 100%. If the government forces Apple to destroy the UX of iOS, its because of actions Apple took which forced their hand. There are actions Apple could take which would abate this. They aren't taking them. You should not be mad at developers; you should be mad at Apple.

parasubvert 6y ago
All of WHAT is Apple’s fault? Providing a service that consumers want to use and preventing other companies from ruining it? Telling consumers they should be mad at Apple is absurd. I am not mad at Apple, I am mad at Epic for wasting everyone’s time with this case that they know they will lose, purely to shape public opinion. The judge so far seems to be projecting this is what will happen. I also don’t like relying on regulators to force changes in a market they know little about. Interfering with a successful model that consumers LIKE and WANT into something else does not benefit consumers. Benefiting other developers is completely irrelevant to the point of antitrust. That’s just corporate welfare. Apple would be best to lower their rate a bit, clarify certain inconsistent rules, and not abuse the review process, but otherwise I do not want multiple App stores and prefer Apple to regulate their store over the government. I guarantee you there are far more consumers that share this opinion than not. We really could care less what developers are whining about Apple’s policies or retail cut. If you can’t build for iOS at a profit, find something else to do. The government isn’t going to force a change of the iOS UX, that’s a pipe dream localized to Hacker News and Epic’s board room. Apple isn’t a monopoly by any definition of the term. You could declare them a utility, but that won’t have the effect you expect. To believe that iOS, a platform with 15% market share, somehow represents the end of platform history that needs government intervention, is the height of lazy thinking. Build a better ecosystem. Apple did it barely 14 years ago when they were a fraction of Microsoft’s size, and everyone said it was impossible.
threeseed 6y ago
The best developers are selfless and put the interests of users first. Those "insane rules" are an example of that.
- 015a 6y ago
  Which developers are those, exactly? I'd like examples. Is Apple one of them? The company which disobeys its own App Store rules in the usage of push messages for marking AppleCare, Apple Music, Apple TV+, Apple Fitness, and Apple Arcade? The company which goes beyond this and into marketing these services within the literal Settings app of iOS, an avenue that no other developer has access to? Is Apple putting the interests of their users "first" by restricting the distribution of cloud game streaming applications without being able to review the individual games within the service? How so? It doesn't put my interests first, and I'm an Apple user! So, oof, ok, they're putting the interests of the nebulous, general, undefinable "prototypical user" first; not me, naturally, not millions of other users, but some unknown user out there. Though, by serving the interests of this unknown prototypical user, they're actively hurting my interests! Is Apple putting the interests of users "first" by forcing a 30% tax onto any transaction made in the store? I mean, if one analyzes it with all the critical thinking of a seventh grader, sure. They're protecting their users! From the evil, icky "other" credit card processors like, uh, Visa! and Stripe! Those guys will steal your data... or, uh, I guess they wouldn't, actually they're fine, but then apps could use whatever processors they wanted, including ones which steal your data! I mean, lets ignore that Apple could require developers to use one of a set number of approved safe processors, because jeeze, that would destroy the whole argument, wouldn't want that. Oh, right, I forgot, Apple is being Fair! They don't want to give special treatment to other payment networks, because then they'd have to pick which ones are safe and show favoritism. There we go, an Unassailable stance. Wait, but... Apple only enforces the IAP Framework requirement for Digital purchases... plenty of apps use whatever payment processor they want, including bad ones, as long as its for Physical goods. Weird... and didn't Apple give Amazon special treatment with Prime Video, for Digital goods, allowing them to bypass the IAP Framework? That's right, they did do that... Jeeze, this is looking pretty bad for Apple. I mean, they're the ones making the rules, and they can't even operate in a position where the Nebulous and Undefinable Interests of Unknown and Uncountable Users is put "first". What hope does anyone else have? Except, maybe, just maybe, their hope lies in not treating users like babies who need a nanny to make rules in the first place. I know, its crazy, but hear me out: there was that one time I was drinking from my bottle and the nipple fell off and I split milk everywhere, it was such a mess, my mommy was so mad! But, I'm still here. Growing. Learning. Making dumb, shitty comments on the internet. Capable of (most of the time) acting like an adult and making my own decisions. I'm capable of deciding for myself whether something is Safe, whether I want to take the risk, and hedging myself and my interests when those risks turn sour. Every human is. We can't operate in a nursery for our entire lives and expect to grow as people, or even as a species. There is so much more that iPhones, and mobile computing in general, are capable of; so lets go do it, and lets not pay Apple 30% and deal with their App Review Team in the process. Because I already paid them fair and square for the phone. That should be enough.
MR4D 6y ago
> Actually, there is one near-perfect solution... So your perfect solution is to recreate the mess that's on the PC??? I don't think you understand - we don't want that. That's why people like me, my wife, my kids, my parents, my relatives, and most of my friends buy an iPhone - so we don't have to go through that hell. The number of people who buy a iphone for sheer simplicity is enormous. My friend's Android has a better camera, a different friend's Android has some cool games that I can't get. But that's OK, and it's my trade-off to make. If Blizzard really doesn't like Apple, when why don't they fork Android and make their own phone and have a cool backend like Unreal engine running it? They have the resources and the fans to do it. And frankly, it'd probably be really freakin cool.
- Jonanin 6y ago
  You think blizzard has the resources, know-how, marketing, and brand recognition to build and successfully launch a phone that competes with the iPhone? That is just short of delusional. You really have no idea what you're talking about. But I'm glad you like the iPhone.
  - MR4D 6y ago
    They don’t have to go it alone. I’m sure they could partner with Samsung or someone else. And I’m not trying to understate the complexity, just saying they’d have a decent chance of making a great gaming device with phone capabilities.
- la_oveja 6y ago
  Buying a phone just for a game is the solution instead of actually being able to install whatever you want. Are you even thinking before hitting "reply"?
  - MR4D 6y ago
    A Nintendo Switch is basically that, right?
ballenf 6y ago
As a developer I just don’t like the precedent that if I’m too successful at creating a great product that I therefore lose control over the very qualities of my product that made it successful.
- mitchdaily 6y ago
  This applies to everything though. If I drill of oil and am 'too successful' and abuse my position the Gov cracks down on me. Same if a telco is 'too successful' And you are forgetting that 'too successful' in these cases is: literally has billions in profit uses market position in an anti competitive way
- danielheath 6y ago
  In return for the benefits of living in a modern society, you pay many prices; one of them is a cap on how much influence you are permitted to hold over others.
- wayneftw 6y ago
  Remember when you had to rent a telephone from Ma Bell in order to use the phone service that you paid for? Yeah neither do I because the government broke that shit up like they were supposed to. I bought this iPhone and I can't even run my own programs on it without asking for Apple's permission. This needs to be outlawed yesterday.
wayoutthere 6y ago
You can’t have both a secure platform and a platform where anyone can arbitrarily run code without a gatekeeper. Apple is that gatekeeper because I, the user, want them to be. Apple has shown me, as a user, that the trade off they make between giving developers open access and protecting users from malware to be a sane one. Does it make it harder to monetize an app? Totally, but for many iPhone users, that’s a feature, not a bug. The developers are not apple’s customer, so they’re not building a product around their needs — which we honestly need more of in tech. If I felt more strongly about Apple being a gatekeeper on its own platform, I might use Android in some flavor. But I just want a phone that works and has the apps I want to use without a bunch of garbage cluttering it up.
rodgerd 6y ago
Apple make their devices for their customers. I don't really give a fuck about what toxic crap developers want to be able to get away with.

by 015a 6y ago

parasubvert 6y ago

All of WHAT is Apple’s fault? Providing a service that consumers want to use and preventing other companies from ruining it? Telling consumers they should be mad at Apple is absurd. I am not mad at Apple, I am mad at Epic for wasting everyone’s time with this case that they know they will lose, purely to shape public opinion. The judge so far seems to be projecting this is what will happen. I also don’t like relying on regulators to force changes in a market they know little about. Interfering with a successful model that consumers LIKE and WANT into something else does not benefit consumers. Benefiting other developers is completely irrelevant to the point of antitrust. That’s just corporate welfare. Apple would be best to lower their rate a bit, clarify certain inconsistent rules, and not abuse the review process, but otherwise I do not want multiple App stores and prefer Apple to regulate their store over the government. I guarantee you there are far more consumers that share this opinion than not. We really could care less what developers are whining about Apple’s policies or retail cut. If you can’t build for iOS at a profit, find something else to do. The government isn’t going to force a change of the iOS UX, that’s a pipe dream localized to Hacker News and Epic’s board room. Apple isn’t a monopoly by any definition of the term. You could declare them a utility, but that won’t have the effect you expect. To believe that iOS, a platform with 15% market share, somehow represents the end of platform history that needs government intervention, is the height of lazy thinking. Build a better ecosystem. Apple did it barely 14 years ago when they were a fraction of Microsoft’s size, and everyone said it was impossible.

threeseed 6y ago

The best developers are selfless and put the interests of users first. Those "insane rules" are an example of that.

015a 6y ago
Which developers are those, exactly? I'd like examples. Is Apple one of them? The company which disobeys its own App Store rules in the usage of push messages for marking AppleCare, Apple Music, Apple TV+, Apple Fitness, and Apple Arcade? The company which goes beyond this and into marketing these services within the literal Settings app of iOS, an avenue that no other developer has access to? Is Apple putting the interests of their users "first" by restricting the distribution of cloud game streaming applications without being able to review the individual games within the service? How so? It doesn't put my interests first, and I'm an Apple user! So, oof, ok, they're putting the interests of the nebulous, general, undefinable "prototypical user" first; not me, naturally, not millions of other users, but some unknown user out there. Though, by serving the interests of this unknown prototypical user, they're actively hurting my interests! Is Apple putting the interests of users "first" by forcing a 30% tax onto any transaction made in the store? I mean, if one analyzes it with all the critical thinking of a seventh grader, sure. They're protecting their users! From the evil, icky "other" credit card processors like, uh, Visa! and Stripe! Those guys will steal your data... or, uh, I guess they wouldn't, actually they're fine, but then apps could use whatever processors they wanted, including ones which steal your data! I mean, lets ignore that Apple could require developers to use one of a set number of approved safe processors, because jeeze, that would destroy the whole argument, wouldn't want that. Oh, right, I forgot, Apple is being Fair! They don't want to give special treatment to other payment networks, because then they'd have to pick which ones are safe and show favoritism. There we go, an Unassailable stance. Wait, but... Apple only enforces the IAP Framework requirement for Digital purchases... plenty of apps use whatever payment processor they want, including bad ones, as long as its for Physical goods. Weird... and didn't Apple give Amazon special treatment with Prime Video, for Digital goods, allowing them to bypass the IAP Framework? That's right, they did do that... Jeeze, this is looking pretty bad for Apple. I mean, they're the ones making the rules, and they can't even operate in a position where the Nebulous and Undefinable Interests of Unknown and Uncountable Users is put "first". What hope does anyone else have? Except, maybe, just maybe, their hope lies in not treating users like babies who need a nanny to make rules in the first place. I know, its crazy, but hear me out: there was that one time I was drinking from my bottle and the nipple fell off and I split milk everywhere, it was such a mess, my mommy was so mad! But, I'm still here. Growing. Learning. Making dumb, shitty comments on the internet. Capable of (most of the time) acting like an adult and making my own decisions. I'm capable of deciding for myself whether something is Safe, whether I want to take the risk, and hedging myself and my interests when those risks turn sour. Every human is. We can't operate in a nursery for our entire lives and expect to grow as people, or even as a species. There is so much more that iPhones, and mobile computing in general, are capable of; so lets go do it, and lets not pay Apple 30% and deal with their App Review Team in the process. Because I already paid them fair and square for the phone. That should be enough.

MR4D 6y ago

> Actually, there is one near-perfect solution... So your perfect solution is to recreate the mess that's on the PC??? I don't think you understand - we don't want that. That's why people like me, my wife, my kids, my parents, my relatives, and most of my friends buy an iPhone - so we don't have to go through that hell. The number of people who buy a iphone for sheer simplicity is enormous. My friend's Android has a better camera, a different friend's Android has some cool games that I can't get. But that's OK, and it's my trade-off to make. If Blizzard really doesn't like Apple, when why don't they fork Android and make their own phone and have a cool backend like Unreal engine running it? They have the resources and the fans to do it. And frankly, it'd probably be really freakin cool.

Jonanin 6y ago
You think blizzard has the resources, know-how, marketing, and brand recognition to build and successfully launch a phone that competes with the iPhone? That is just short of delusional. You really have no idea what you're talking about. But I'm glad you like the iPhone.
- MR4D 6y ago
  They don’t have to go it alone. I’m sure they could partner with Samsung or someone else. And I’m not trying to understate the complexity, just saying they’d have a decent chance of making a great gaming device with phone capabilities.
la_oveja 6y ago
Buying a phone just for a game is the solution instead of actually being able to install whatever you want. Are you even thinking before hitting "reply"?
- MR4D 6y ago
  A Nintendo Switch is basically that, right?

ballenf 6y ago

As a developer I just don’t like the precedent that if I’m too successful at creating a great product that I therefore lose control over the very qualities of my product that made it successful.

mitchdaily 6y ago
This applies to everything though. If I drill of oil and am 'too successful' and abuse my position the Gov cracks down on me. Same if a telco is 'too successful' And you are forgetting that 'too successful' in these cases is: literally has billions in profit uses market position in an anti competitive way
danielheath 6y ago
In return for the benefits of living in a modern society, you pay many prices; one of them is a cap on how much influence you are permitted to hold over others.
wayneftw 6y ago
Remember when you had to rent a telephone from Ma Bell in order to use the phone service that you paid for? Yeah neither do I because the government broke that shit up like they were supposed to. I bought this iPhone and I can't even run my own programs on it without asking for Apple's permission. This needs to be outlawed yesterday.

wayoutthere 6y ago

You can’t have both a secure platform and a platform where anyone can arbitrarily run code without a gatekeeper. Apple is that gatekeeper because I, the user, want them to be. Apple has shown me, as a user, that the trade off they make between giving developers open access and protecting users from malware to be a sane one. Does it make it harder to monetize an app? Totally, but for many iPhone users, that’s a feature, not a bug. The developers are not apple’s customer, so they’re not building a product around their needs — which we honestly need more of in tech. If I felt more strongly about Apple being a gatekeeper on its own platform, I might use Android in some flavor. But I just want a phone that works and has the apps I want to use without a bunch of garbage cluttering it up.

rodgerd 6y ago

Apple make their devices for their customers. I don't really give a fuck about what toxic crap developers want to be able to get away with.