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> The question is really about objectives. The BLM movement isn't fundamentally anti-democratic or revolutionary, it's reformist. I think you are judging Trump

> The question is really about objectives. The BLM movement isn't fundamentally anti-democratic or revolutionary, it's reformist. I think you are judging Trump supporters by the worst of them, and BLM by the best of them. When I look at BLM, I see black ethnonationalists, people who are eager to use violence, and just generally a lot of dangerous people. Are my eyes lying to me? How can you just dismiss that? It's so easy to point to a peaceful nice subset of BLM, and say that that is all BLM is. Indeed, people even go as far as to say "BLM just means that you think that 'black lives matter'", which is nonsense. I've seen Scientologists say "Scientology is just about helping people, if you agree with that then you agree with us", or "Feminism is just about believing that men and women are equal, if you agree with that sentence, you are a feminist". Of course most people already agree that 'black lives matter', but that is certainly not the same thing as agreeing with 'Black Lives Matter'. I think it is quite a leap to simply call them "reformist". If you can focus only on the reformist elements of BLM, then others are completely justified in doing the same Trump supporters.

simonh 6y ago
Well, as I said there are more than just 2 sides in this. There are multiple groups with multiple agendas. On the BLM side I see a subset of violent criminals in a movement aiming to reform policing and governance. I think they're largely wrong, but they're not a threat to the democratic process and they can be negotiated with or opposed institutionally. In Trumpism I see a subset of violent criminals in a movement that, from the top, tried to overthrow democracy in America. Not in a sub-group, not an extremist sub-set or faction. From the top down.
- apostacy 6y ago
  > On the BLM side I see a subset of violent criminals in a movement aiming to reform policing and governance. Again, the arson, the vehicular terror attacks, the kidnappings, and the mass shootings are bit too much for me to stomach. And no effort is made to distance themselves from the violence and coercion. It is like trying to say that soup is really good except for the poop in it; 'mostly' peaceful. I don't think there is any evidence that Trumpists wanted to overthrow democracy. The Trump supporters did a BLM-lite style protest of the capital building. They were actually much nicer than BLM usually is. They shuffled around the hallways of an empty building for 45 minutes and then left. A guy had plastic zip-ties, which people theorize that he was going to take hostages or something (but didn't). Their action was clearly symbolic, and the overreaction to it just shows how detached and insincere people are. So no, I'm sorry I just don't see what you are seeing.
  - simonh 6y ago
    >And no effort is made to distance themselves from the violence and coercion. and >Their action was clearly symbolic In the same post. Wow. The personal testimony of a lot of the people actually there seems to disagree with your assessment. They seem to have known exactly what they were there to do and weren't shy of saying so.

simonh 6y ago

Well, as I said there are more than just 2 sides in this. There are multiple groups with multiple agendas. On the BLM side I see a subset of violent criminals in a movement aiming to reform policing and governance. I think they're largely wrong, but they're not a threat to the democratic process and they can be negotiated with or opposed institutionally. In Trumpism I see a subset of violent criminals in a movement that, from the top, tried to overthrow democracy in America. Not in a sub-group, not an extremist sub-set or faction. From the top down.

apostacy 6y ago
> On the BLM side I see a subset of violent criminals in a movement aiming to reform policing and governance. Again, the arson, the vehicular terror attacks, the kidnappings, and the mass shootings are bit too much for me to stomach. And no effort is made to distance themselves from the violence and coercion. It is like trying to say that soup is really good except for the poop in it; 'mostly' peaceful. I don't think there is any evidence that Trumpists wanted to overthrow democracy. The Trump supporters did a BLM-lite style protest of the capital building. They were actually much nicer than BLM usually is. They shuffled around the hallways of an empty building for 45 minutes and then left. A guy had plastic zip-ties, which people theorize that he was going to take hostages or something (but didn't). Their action was clearly symbolic, and the overreaction to it just shows how detached and insincere people are. So no, I'm sorry I just don't see what you are seeing.
- simonh 6y ago
  >And no effort is made to distance themselves from the violence and coercion. and >Their action was clearly symbolic In the same post. Wow. The personal testimony of a lot of the people actually there seems to disagree with your assessment. They seem to have known exactly what they were there to do and weren't shy of saying so.