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You have the choice to not use iOS and not use the Apple App Store. You might not like Apple’s attitude around their operation of the App Store so you don’t use

You have the choice to not use iOS and not use the Apple App Store. You might not like Apple’s attitude around their operation of the App Store so you don’t use their devices. You might have missed some great apps, but there are still many great alternatives on Android.

StavrosK 6y ago
So it's either a choice between "not running some specific game/app whose publisher made their own app store" and "not running any iOS app because my only option is to not have an iPhone"? I know which one gives me more choice.
- llbeansandrice 6y ago
  Why is more choice necessarily good, besides simplified theory about capitalism? Brands have built their entire success off of providing less choice to consumers and they, in general seem to be successful. See Apple and Trader Joe's. Choice is good when there's direct competition. Companies will compete to have better app stores if I can choose which app store I want to use. I as a consumer will get to choose what games I want to play. It's bad for me as a consumer that I also have to choose which app store I'm using to download that game. Also both things can be bad, but I personally feel that the model where people like Apple due to the "ecosystem" seems to have worked pretty well for a lot of consumers. I don't think "more choice" is a good metric here at all because it's false. I don't care about having more choice in app stores(and I'm not getting to chose which app store I use under either model anyway), I care about my choice of apps. Which isn't really changing, companies will get their product to consumers.
- Retric 6y ago
  We have more choice today, because currently Android and iOS have different models. Break up the App Store and your left with a single model. What nobody is talking about is Epic could completely avoid the premium their complaining about by using a website for all transactions. Just like the Kindle App or Netflix etc. The only thing they get from this lawsuit is in app micro transactions. As such it’s really a question of business models not consumer choice.
  - issamehh 6y ago
    Reading Apple's policy makes it seem not so simple. Netflix, for example, avoids the cost because it is a subscription service which is specifically excluded from having a cut taken out. I can't speak for Kindle, but when I very recently read over this it was clear that just routing to a site to handle the purchase would not be sufficient to bypass this
    - mmastrac 6y ago
      And likely Netflix et al were grandfathered in because Apple _couldn't_ strongarm them. If Netflix was invented post AppStore, I'd wager that Apple would have them paying Apple taxes regardless.
    - judge2020 6y ago
      > which is specifically excluded from having a cut taken out. Netflix is constantly at odds with Apple. You can't subscribe via the iOS app store and they don't even link to the Netflix website due to Apple's rules and how they want their 30% cut for app store-driven traffic. https://techcrunch.com/2018/12/31/netflix-stops-paying-the-apple-tax-on-its-853m-in-annual-ios-revenue/ https://techcrunch.com/2018/12/31/netflix-stops-paying-the-a...
      - threeseed 6y ago
        > constantly at odds Provides an article from 3 years ago during which time the sign-up flow has not changed and Netflix has exploded in growth.
        judge2020 6y ago
        There doesn't need to be constant news about Netflix changing stuff, they still don't like Apple's rules about it and there are still no links to netflix.com in the app. > Trying to join Netflix? > > You can't sign up for Netflix in the app. We know it's a hassle.
  - bluefirebrand 6y ago
- judge2020 6y ago
  No, your freedom of choice is only one level deep. You can either choose iOS, which includes 'runs only apple-approved software', or choose any other OS which runs other software. This is basically the right to repair / right to do whatever you want with your device debate. You can't force Apple to program the functionality for running other people's code into iOS, but it's legal if you figure out how. This is exactly what went down in 2010 with Cydia [0] - it's fair use to modify your own device, but that doesn't compel apple to make it easy to do so[1]. 0: https://www.wired.com/2010/07/feds-ok-iphone-jailbreaking/ https://www.wired.com/2010/07/feds-ok-iphone-jailbreaking/ 1: https://www.wired.com/images_blogs/threatlevel/2010/07/dmcaexemps.pdf#page=77 https://www.wired.com/images_blogs/threatlevel/2010/07/dmcae...
  - colejohnson66 6y ago
    Nitpick: that exemption is from 2010. The DMCA mandates an exemption be granted every three years for something. Meaning: in 2013, that exemption was gone unless it was exempted again. And again in 2016. And again in 2019. And so on. The DMCA does not include an “exempt once, exempt forever” clause, sadly. Thankfully, we’ve had the EFF to campaign for exemptions, but it’s frustrating having to go through the whole ordeal every three years because Congress can’t be arsed to fix it. 17 U.S. Code §1201(a)(1)(C)[0]: > (C) During the 2-year period described in subparagraph (A), and during each succeeding 3-year period, the Librarian of Congress, upon the recommendation of the Register of Copyrights, who shall consult with the Assistant Secretary for Communications and Information of the Department of Commerce and report and comment on his or her views in making such recommendation, shall make the determination in a rulemaking proceeding for purposes of subparagraph (B) of whether persons who are users of a copyrighted work are, or are likely to be in the succeeding 3-year period, adversely affected by the prohibition under subparagraph (A) in their ability to make noninfringing uses under this title of a particular class of copyrighted works. In conducting such rulemaking, the Librarian shall examine— (followed by a list of things the Librarian will consider) [0]: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/1201 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/1201
  - kaba0 6y ago
    Or choose any other OS? Are you living in a fantasy world with more than two OSs? It’s not goddamn hair shampoo..
croes 6y ago
Imagine the same choice on a PC. Microsoft doesn't allow a ceeatin software just switch to MacOS or Linux. All the software you previously bought is useless and you have to buy it again. So because multiple AppStores is too much of hassle you need to keep multiple smartphones or buy the same software twice.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- deftnerd 6y ago
  Considering the tight integration of the OS and the hardware, I would offer the comparison that it's more like a CPU not allowing any code that's not signed by Intel to run. Or, more aptly, only allowing one specific OS to run on their CPU and that OS has a restrictive policy on application usage. Sure, you could go with AMD but does having other choices excuse a company? It certainly violates the spirit of anti-trust laws. Apple makes and controls 46% of all the mobile devices in the US. The nearest competitor is Samsung, who makes 25%. If Apple allowed other OS's to operate on their phone, then they could say "If you don't like our integrated app store policies and policy of not allowing other app stores, use a different OS". But until they do that, the OS and the hardware have to be seen as one thing.
  - enos_feedler 6y ago
    Apple makes and controls 46% of all the mobile devices in the US because their methodology for designing, building, distributing and iterating on the product is successful. Consumer satisfaction, retention and growth are bi-products of this success. Apple doesn't play mean tricks to gain market share. They simply build great products, invest more in innovation (CPUs) to continue making great products. The m1 chip shows this. You can't pick apart what Apple does and give it some attribute/feature of an ecosystem model. Right now the market is Apple vs. ecosystem. Consumers have choice to buy from Apple, or buy from an ecosystem. We should focus less on trying to handicap Apple and start figuring out how a leader in the ecosystem can rise above it to compete with Apple head on.

StavrosK 6y ago

So it's either a choice between "not running some specific game/app whose publisher made their own app store" and "not running any iOS app because my only option is to not have an iPhone"? I know which one gives me more choice.

llbeansandrice 6y ago
Why is more choice necessarily good, besides simplified theory about capitalism? Brands have built their entire success off of providing less choice to consumers and they, in general seem to be successful. See Apple and Trader Joe's. Choice is good when there's direct competition. Companies will compete to have better app stores if I can choose which app store I want to use. I as a consumer will get to choose what games I want to play. It's bad for me as a consumer that I also have to choose which app store I'm using to download that game. Also both things can be bad, but I personally feel that the model where people like Apple due to the "ecosystem" seems to have worked pretty well for a lot of consumers. I don't think "more choice" is a good metric here at all because it's false. I don't care about having more choice in app stores(and I'm not getting to chose which app store I use under either model anyway), I care about my choice of apps. Which isn't really changing, companies will get their product to consumers.
Retric 6y ago
We have more choice today, because currently Android and iOS have different models. Break up the App Store and your left with a single model. What nobody is talking about is Epic could completely avoid the premium their complaining about by using a website for all transactions. Just like the Kindle App or Netflix etc. The only thing they get from this lawsuit is in app micro transactions. As such it’s really a question of business models not consumer choice.
- issamehh 6y ago
  Reading Apple's policy makes it seem not so simple. Netflix, for example, avoids the cost because it is a subscription service which is specifically excluded from having a cut taken out. I can't speak for Kindle, but when I very recently read over this it was clear that just routing to a site to handle the purchase would not be sufficient to bypass this
  - mmastrac 6y ago
    And likely Netflix et al were grandfathered in because Apple _couldn't_ strongarm them. If Netflix was invented post AppStore, I'd wager that Apple would have them paying Apple taxes regardless.
  - judge2020 6y ago
    > which is specifically excluded from having a cut taken out. Netflix is constantly at odds with Apple. You can't subscribe via the iOS app store and they don't even link to the Netflix website due to Apple's rules and how they want their 30% cut for app store-driven traffic. https://techcrunch.com/2018/12/31/netflix-stops-paying-the-apple-tax-on-its-853m-in-annual-ios-revenue/ https://techcrunch.com/2018/12/31/netflix-stops-paying-the-a...
    - threeseed 6y ago
      > constantly at odds Provides an article from 3 years ago during which time the sign-up flow has not changed and Netflix has exploded in growth.
      - judge2020 6y ago
        There doesn't need to be constant news about Netflix changing stuff, they still don't like Apple's rules about it and there are still no links to netflix.com in the app. > Trying to join Netflix? > > You can't sign up for Netflix in the app. We know it's a hassle.
- bluefirebrand 6y ago
judge2020 6y ago
No, your freedom of choice is only one level deep. You can either choose iOS, which includes 'runs only apple-approved software', or choose any other OS which runs other software. This is basically the right to repair / right to do whatever you want with your device debate. You can't force Apple to program the functionality for running other people's code into iOS, but it's legal if you figure out how. This is exactly what went down in 2010 with Cydia [0] - it's fair use to modify your own device, but that doesn't compel apple to make it easy to do so[1]. 0: https://www.wired.com/2010/07/feds-ok-iphone-jailbreaking/ https://www.wired.com/2010/07/feds-ok-iphone-jailbreaking/ 1: https://www.wired.com/images_blogs/threatlevel/2010/07/dmcaexemps.pdf#page=77 https://www.wired.com/images_blogs/threatlevel/2010/07/dmcae...
- colejohnson66 6y ago
  Nitpick: that exemption is from 2010. The DMCA mandates an exemption be granted every three years for something. Meaning: in 2013, that exemption was gone unless it was exempted again. And again in 2016. And again in 2019. And so on. The DMCA does not include an “exempt once, exempt forever” clause, sadly. Thankfully, we’ve had the EFF to campaign for exemptions, but it’s frustrating having to go through the whole ordeal every three years because Congress can’t be arsed to fix it. 17 U.S. Code §1201(a)(1)(C)[0]: > (C) During the 2-year period described in subparagraph (A), and during each succeeding 3-year period, the Librarian of Congress, upon the recommendation of the Register of Copyrights, who shall consult with the Assistant Secretary for Communications and Information of the Department of Commerce and report and comment on his or her views in making such recommendation, shall make the determination in a rulemaking proceeding for purposes of subparagraph (B) of whether persons who are users of a copyrighted work are, or are likely to be in the succeeding 3-year period, adversely affected by the prohibition under subparagraph (A) in their ability to make noninfringing uses under this title of a particular class of copyrighted works. In conducting such rulemaking, the Librarian shall examine— (followed by a list of things the Librarian will consider) [0]: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/1201 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/1201
- kaba0 6y ago
  Or choose any other OS? Are you living in a fantasy world with more than two OSs? It’s not goddamn hair shampoo..

croes 6y ago

Imagine the same choice on a PC. Microsoft doesn't allow a ceeatin software just switch to MacOS or Linux. All the software you previously bought is useless and you have to buy it again. So because multiple AppStores is too much of hassle you need to keep multiple smartphones or buy the same software twice.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
deftnerd 6y ago
Considering the tight integration of the OS and the hardware, I would offer the comparison that it's more like a CPU not allowing any code that's not signed by Intel to run. Or, more aptly, only allowing one specific OS to run on their CPU and that OS has a restrictive policy on application usage. Sure, you could go with AMD but does having other choices excuse a company? It certainly violates the spirit of anti-trust laws. Apple makes and controls 46% of all the mobile devices in the US. The nearest competitor is Samsung, who makes 25%. If Apple allowed other OS's to operate on their phone, then they could say "If you don't like our integrated app store policies and policy of not allowing other app stores, use a different OS". But until they do that, the OS and the hardware have to be seen as one thing.
- enos_feedler 6y ago
  Apple makes and controls 46% of all the mobile devices in the US because their methodology for designing, building, distributing and iterating on the product is successful. Consumer satisfaction, retention and growth are bi-products of this success. Apple doesn't play mean tricks to gain market share. They simply build great products, invest more in innovation (CPUs) to continue making great products. The m1 chip shows this. You can't pick apart what Apple does and give it some attribute/feature of an ecosystem model. Right now the market is Apple vs. ecosystem. Consumers have choice to buy from Apple, or buy from an ecosystem. We should focus less on trying to handicap Apple and start figuring out how a leader in the ecosystem can rise above it to compete with Apple head on.