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"Most theft in USA is wage theft by employers" This is something I hear repeated ad infinitum on the net, but has a calculation ever been done the other way? T

"Most theft in USA is wage theft by employers" This is something I hear repeated ad infinitum on the net, but has a calculation ever been done the other way? That is, workers stealing from employers by deliberately clocking out early/late, or by goofing off on HN while on the clock. I would hazard a guess that this number is an order of magnitude greater than seedy business owners short changing their staff.

WrtCdEvrydy 6y ago
Yeah, the guy mowing the lawn and getting dicked on overtime is totally goofing off on HN
nullandvoid 6y ago
Spotted the guy who underpays their staff
- pc86 6y ago
  > Be kind. Don't be snarky. Have curious conversation; don't cross-examine. Please don't fulminate. Please don't sneer, including at the rest of the community. > Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith. > Please don't post shallow dismissals https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
capableweb 6y ago
Yes, calculations have been done. Search for "wage theft" and there is bunch of research about this. The US is not alone in this and it's also not a new problem, it's been like this for a while now. Here's a good starting point: https://www.epi.org/publication/epidemic-wage-theft-costing-workers-hundreds/ https://www.epi.org/publication/epidemic-wage-theft-costing-... > If these findings in New York, Chicago, and Los Angeles are generalizable to the rest of the U.S. low-wage workforce of 30 million, wage theft is costing workers more than $50 billion a year. > All of the robberies, burglaries, larcenies, and motor vehicle thefts in the nation cost their victims less than $14 billion in 2012, according to the FBI’s Uniform Crime Reports > in the United States in 2012, there were 292,074 robberies of all kinds, including bank robberies, residential robberies, convenience store and gas station robberies, and street robberies.3 The total value of the property taken in those crimes was $340,850,358 Worth noting that that report is from 2012. Things are surely worse now. Edit: Sorry, I misunderstood what you meant. I'm not sure if there is any research around employees slacking off on work time. If there is, it's probably conducted by companies themselves and therefore private.
ska 6y ago
> but has a calculation ever been done the other way? The usual answer to something that is both an obvious question and clearly impactful is "yes, extensively". Which is separate from the question of how well the research has been done of course (in either direction). > I would hazard a guess that this number is an order of magnitude greater than seedy business owners short changing their staff. What broad data are you basing this on? I suspect this is one of those areas where (nearly) any one persons individual experience is basically useless, because of the inherent lack of breadth. Exceptions made for extremely unusual life/career paths that lead to better sampling by accident.
- missedthecue 6y ago
  Well there doesn't seem to be much data, hence my original comment. My assumptions are based primarily on my own anecdotal observation. I work a relatively low wage job with a lot of relatively low wage coworkers. Most of them make a deliberate effort every day to do as little work as possible, to the point that it occurred to me that they might be engaging in more effort than if they just did their jobs anyway. I'm not minimizing wage theft. It's a real issue. I'm just casting some doubt on the claim that it's the biggest form of theft by bringing light to a viewpoint most people haven't even ever considered.
  - pc86 6y ago
    > I work a relatively low wage job with a lot of relatively low wage coworkers. Most of them make a deliberate effort every day to do as little work as possible, to the point that it occurred to me that they might be engaging in more effort than if they just did their jobs anyway. Do you work in a state government's IT department?
  - ska 6y ago
    > bringing light to a viewpoint most people haven't even ever considered. Why do you think this statement is true?
    - missedthecue 6y ago
EricE 6y ago
It's easy to demonize groups you aren't a part of.
- missedthecue 6y ago
  I make $15/hr which group am I not a part of?
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - Nicksil 6y ago
    >I make $15/hr This is a dishonest statement.
    - missedthecue 6y ago
      ok you tell me how much I make

WrtCdEvrydy 6y ago

Yeah, the guy mowing the lawn and getting dicked on overtime is totally goofing off on HN

nullandvoid 6y ago

Spotted the guy who underpays their staff

pc86 6y ago
> Be kind. Don't be snarky. Have curious conversation; don't cross-examine. Please don't fulminate. Please don't sneer, including at the rest of the community. > Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith. > Please don't post shallow dismissals https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

capableweb 6y ago

Yes, calculations have been done. Search for "wage theft" and there is bunch of research about this. The US is not alone in this and it's also not a new problem, it's been like this for a while now. Here's a good starting point: https://www.epi.org/publication/epidemic-wage-theft-costing-workers-hundreds/ https://www.epi.org/publication/epidemic-wage-theft-costing-... > If these findings in New York, Chicago, and Los Angeles are generalizable to the rest of the U.S. low-wage workforce of 30 million, wage theft is costing workers more than $50 billion a year. > All of the robberies, burglaries, larcenies, and motor vehicle thefts in the nation cost their victims less than $14 billion in 2012, according to the FBI’s Uniform Crime Reports > in the United States in 2012, there were 292,074 robberies of all kinds, including bank robberies, residential robberies, convenience store and gas station robberies, and street robberies.3 The total value of the property taken in those crimes was $340,850,358 Worth noting that that report is from 2012. Things are surely worse now. Edit: Sorry, I misunderstood what you meant. I'm not sure if there is any research around employees slacking off on work time. If there is, it's probably conducted by companies themselves and therefore private.

ska 6y ago

> but has a calculation ever been done the other way? The usual answer to something that is both an obvious question and clearly impactful is "yes, extensively". Which is separate from the question of how well the research has been done of course (in either direction). > I would hazard a guess that this number is an order of magnitude greater than seedy business owners short changing their staff. What broad data are you basing this on? I suspect this is one of those areas where (nearly) any one persons individual experience is basically useless, because of the inherent lack of breadth. Exceptions made for extremely unusual life/career paths that lead to better sampling by accident.

missedthecue 6y ago
Well there doesn't seem to be much data, hence my original comment. My assumptions are based primarily on my own anecdotal observation. I work a relatively low wage job with a lot of relatively low wage coworkers. Most of them make a deliberate effort every day to do as little work as possible, to the point that it occurred to me that they might be engaging in more effort than if they just did their jobs anyway. I'm not minimizing wage theft. It's a real issue. I'm just casting some doubt on the claim that it's the biggest form of theft by bringing light to a viewpoint most people haven't even ever considered.
- pc86 6y ago
  > I work a relatively low wage job with a lot of relatively low wage coworkers. Most of them make a deliberate effort every day to do as little work as possible, to the point that it occurred to me that they might be engaging in more effort than if they just did their jobs anyway. Do you work in a state government's IT department?
- ska 6y ago
  > bringing light to a viewpoint most people haven't even ever considered. Why do you think this statement is true?
  - missedthecue 6y ago

EricE 6y ago

It's easy to demonize groups you aren't a part of.

missedthecue 6y ago
I make $15/hr which group am I not a part of?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- Nicksil 6y ago
  >I make $15/hr This is a dishonest statement.
  - missedthecue 6y ago
    ok you tell me how much I make