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OK so the British HNers commenting seem to be unimpressed. :) Leaving this specific agency/project aside, what would be the right way to do this? How do we do

OK so the British HNers commenting seem to be unimpressed. :) Leaving this specific agency/project aside, what would be the right way to do this? How do we do public investment in high risk projects well?

mcintyre1994 6y ago
I'd be fine with this project, just without the FoI exception and under a government that didn't constantly break FoI laws and that didn't have endless examples of giving contracts corruptly to incompetent friends and donors.
- dalbasal 6y ago
  I understand the FOI misgivings, playing devil's advocate: (1) DARPA (and NASA) appear to be models. Secrecy and unaccountability are a big part of what makes them them. (2) The state of university grant making is currently terrible. A lot of what makes it terrible is accountability. A agree with the premise that you need independence to pursue high risk stuff. The whole premise is investing in things that most people think it are stupid and will never work. That's just not compatible with standard accountability norms. Meanwhile, as you say, contracts go to insiders regardless. It's not like FOI is preventing this corruption. I also feel that (at least on this thread) the British take on corruption is overblown. Was there ever a time or place where sleeping with the mayor of London was not good business? £100k seems cheap. Not saying this is good, just that I don't see the escalation that some here see.
  - drak0n1c 6y ago
    Federal Reserve Banks (including the US) often have no FOI responsibilities either, the reasoning being that it prevents politicization and popular pressure from influencing monetary policy.
hhmc 6y ago
Another approach is VCT/EIS, where private investment is incentivized via aggressive tax breaks.
- dalbasal 6y ago
  Make the case. I'm fairly dubious of tax incentives generally. The system is so complex, with such an advanced loophole finding culture/industry... OTOH... IDK anything about VCT/EIS specifically. Any good examples success stories?
JeanQuille 6y ago
As others have commented, I think the animosity against this announcement isn't necessarily that it wouldn't be successful, just that it's a clear attempt to widen and hush up the current government's already large grift pipeline. FWIW, from my experience in UK public projects, I think the question of how to improve their varied success is complex and would take a long time to fairly cover. Though, off the top of my head: * Pay market rates; non-private research seems to be struggling to attract and retain talent due to the lower wages, and without meaning to be unkind to anyone in particular, there is an evaporative effect where those that leave tend to be higher achievers that can find better offers elsewhere, so the organisation becomes increasingly mired and less functional over time. * End the mentality of "promotion" meaning "to management", which eliminates at a stroke any meaningful technical contribution from the promotee. I think this one is improving lately, but it's taking a long time to undo the damage of the 1990s–2010s. * Have advisers for scientific programmes at the level of policymaking, and *listen to them*. It's vexing enough from the outside, but an acquaintance employed in this capacity for the previous government described the scene from inside as "a shit show".
- cameronh90 6y ago
  The restrictions on FOI may be an attempt to allow the government to directly pay market rates and otherwise do the things they normally have to hide via an outsourcing partner. Look at what happens when the Daily Mail and/or opposition MPs find out that an IT boffin is being paid more than a nurse. They stoke unjustified outrage until the hospital is forced to outsource to Crapita to hide its costs.
  - JeanQuille 6y ago
    In terms of raw salary, I think the current mess is more a result of the government's own "pay cap" crusade over the last decade—I haven't known anyone really be against the idea that public sector salaries should at least have kept pace with inflation, and I feel like there wasn't really any call for the dirty tactics the government has brought to negotiation over the past few years. But you're probably right that public visibility has spoiled other perks that are otherwise part of a functioning job—travel to conferences, overnight stays, on-site food outlets; it feels like they've all been cut from fear that they could end up as a bile-filled column in the Mail. As an aside, I've gladly said to many people that as an IT boffin, nurses should be paid more than me!
lbriner 6y ago
A great book I read called Bad Buying by Peter Smith covers most of the issue. If you want success, you need to ask the right questions, define success criteria, contract properly etc. On the one hand it is good that they recognise that big wins often involve big risks. On the other hand, it is important that they decide how to tell the difference between great potential and milking the cash cow. As long as they have an independent ethics group who can make sure nothing untowards happens, it might be OK!
gadders 6y ago
The British HNers skew left. Boris Johnson could personally cure cancer and they would complain about the oncologists that would become unemployed.
- atc 6y ago
  This 100 times. Hello normal person.
FuckButtons 6y ago
Allow public oversight - the reason people from the uk are unimpressed is because we have no trust in this governments ability to not give large contracts to friends and donors rather than actually talented engineers with good ideas. The tories have a long and storied history of mishandling public science and technology funding in this country.
atc 6y ago
No, no they're not. A vocal, biased minority who are fed the narrative of "Tory bad" 'cause they don't read anything other than The Guardian are out in force. Most Brits either don't know about this, don't care, or think it's cool and are getting on with their shit. I am personally thrilled by the announcement. I hope it works out well and we make something of it.

mcintyre1994 6y ago

I'd be fine with this project, just without the FoI exception and under a government that didn't constantly break FoI laws and that didn't have endless examples of giving contracts corruptly to incompetent friends and donors.

dalbasal 6y ago
I understand the FOI misgivings, playing devil's advocate: (1) DARPA (and NASA) appear to be models. Secrecy and unaccountability are a big part of what makes them them. (2) The state of university grant making is currently terrible. A lot of what makes it terrible is accountability. A agree with the premise that you need independence to pursue high risk stuff. The whole premise is investing in things that most people think it are stupid and will never work. That's just not compatible with standard accountability norms. Meanwhile, as you say, contracts go to insiders regardless. It's not like FOI is preventing this corruption. I also feel that (at least on this thread) the British take on corruption is overblown. Was there ever a time or place where sleeping with the mayor of London was not good business? £100k seems cheap. Not saying this is good, just that I don't see the escalation that some here see.
- drak0n1c 6y ago
  Federal Reserve Banks (including the US) often have no FOI responsibilities either, the reasoning being that it prevents politicization and popular pressure from influencing monetary policy.

hhmc 6y ago

Another approach is VCT/EIS, where private investment is incentivized via aggressive tax breaks.

dalbasal 6y ago
Make the case. I'm fairly dubious of tax incentives generally. The system is so complex, with such an advanced loophole finding culture/industry... OTOH... IDK anything about VCT/EIS specifically. Any good examples success stories?

JeanQuille 6y ago

As others have commented, I think the animosity against this announcement isn't necessarily that it wouldn't be successful, just that it's a clear attempt to widen and hush up the current government's already large grift pipeline. FWIW, from my experience in UK public projects, I think the question of how to improve their varied success is complex and would take a long time to fairly cover. Though, off the top of my head: * Pay market rates; non-private research seems to be struggling to attract and retain talent due to the lower wages, and without meaning to be unkind to anyone in particular, there is an evaporative effect where those that leave tend to be higher achievers that can find better offers elsewhere, so the organisation becomes increasingly mired and less functional over time. * End the mentality of "promotion" meaning "to management", which eliminates at a stroke any meaningful technical contribution from the promotee. I think this one is improving lately, but it's taking a long time to undo the damage of the 1990s–2010s. * Have advisers for scientific programmes at the level of policymaking, and *listen to them*. It's vexing enough from the outside, but an acquaintance employed in this capacity for the previous government described the scene from inside as "a shit show".

cameronh90 6y ago
The restrictions on FOI may be an attempt to allow the government to directly pay market rates and otherwise do the things they normally have to hide via an outsourcing partner. Look at what happens when the Daily Mail and/or opposition MPs find out that an IT boffin is being paid more than a nurse. They stoke unjustified outrage until the hospital is forced to outsource to Crapita to hide its costs.
- JeanQuille 6y ago
  In terms of raw salary, I think the current mess is more a result of the government's own "pay cap" crusade over the last decade—I haven't known anyone really be against the idea that public sector salaries should at least have kept pace with inflation, and I feel like there wasn't really any call for the dirty tactics the government has brought to negotiation over the past few years. But you're probably right that public visibility has spoiled other perks that are otherwise part of a functioning job—travel to conferences, overnight stays, on-site food outlets; it feels like they've all been cut from fear that they could end up as a bile-filled column in the Mail. As an aside, I've gladly said to many people that as an IT boffin, nurses should be paid more than me!

lbriner 6y ago

A great book I read called Bad Buying by Peter Smith covers most of the issue. If you want success, you need to ask the right questions, define success criteria, contract properly etc. On the one hand it is good that they recognise that big wins often involve big risks. On the other hand, it is important that they decide how to tell the difference between great potential and milking the cash cow. As long as they have an independent ethics group who can make sure nothing untowards happens, it might be OK!

gadders 6y ago

The British HNers skew left. Boris Johnson could personally cure cancer and they would complain about the oncologists that would become unemployed.

atc 6y ago
This 100 times. Hello normal person.

FuckButtons 6y ago

Allow public oversight - the reason people from the uk are unimpressed is because we have no trust in this governments ability to not give large contracts to friends and donors rather than actually talented engineers with good ideas. The tories have a long and storied history of mishandling public science and technology funding in this country.

atc 6y ago

No, no they're not. A vocal, biased minority who are fed the narrative of "Tory bad" 'cause they don't read anything other than The Guardian are out in force. Most Brits either don't know about this, don't care, or think it's cool and are getting on with their shit. I am personally thrilled by the announcement. I hope it works out well and we make something of it.