3 ms·

"Because it is unethical to intentionally harm someone for the benefit of medical research." People incur additional risk for enjoyment, money or to contribute

"Because it is unethical to intentionally harm someone for the benefit of medical research." People incur additional risk for enjoyment, money or to contribute to a social cause in many aspects of life. If you work as a deep-sea-diver, go skydiving, join the army or even frequently drink a lot of alcohol this can increase personal risk significantly. Voluntary challenge trials with well informed, healthy, young participants testing novel vaccines and treatments during pandemics has a very high net utilitarian impact. A < 1/10,000 risk for several hundred 20-30 year old participants is dwarfed by the death and suffering prevented by more quickly having efficacy information. I'm 27, and shy away from many risks, but signed up for '1 day sooner' soon after the pandemic reached the UK, and would be proud to participate in a challenge trial if needed. People framing it as 'unethical' should lay out exactly what their ethical framework is.

jedimastert 6y ago
I think the problem isn't that it's unethical to intentionally put someone in harms way, but rather whether or not there can be an informed consent. When the virus first came up, it was completely unknown that the risk of long term impairment might have been, and now we know it was/is pretty severe.
- benchaney 6y ago
  This is incorrect. Informed consent requires that people be given the best available information. If that contains a lot of unknowns, and they understand that, and consent to it, that is completely valid.
- loveistheanswer 6y ago
  >When the virus first came up, it was completely unknown that the risk of long term impairment might have been, and now we know it was/is pretty severe. Only 10% of positive cases (not including untested infections) have any impairment after 3 weeks. https://covid.joinzoe.com/post/covid-long-term?fbclid=IwAR1RxIcmmdL-EFjh_aI- https://covid.joinzoe.com/post/covid-long-term?fbclid=IwAR1R...
rkangel 6y ago
> People framing it as 'unethical' should lay out exactly what their ethical framework is I didn't because I thought it clear and obvious from context. We're talking about medical ethics, which is a well developed field of research and practice. There are established procedures in the US and UK to get ethics approval for studies and those panels are not just making it up as they go along (mostly). I suppose when I say 'it is unethical' what I really mean is 'the medical community in the developed world has come to a strong consensus that it is unethical'. Even with informed consent.
- xyzzyz 6y ago
  To sum up, the notion of “medical ethics” doesn’t actually have much to do with ethics and with what is morally right, and as such should be routinely disregarded when considering how to fight the pandemic crisis.

jedimastert 6y ago

I think the problem isn't that it's unethical to intentionally put someone in harms way, but rather whether or not there can be an informed consent. When the virus first came up, it was completely unknown that the risk of long term impairment might have been, and now we know it was/is pretty severe.

benchaney 6y ago
This is incorrect. Informed consent requires that people be given the best available information. If that contains a lot of unknowns, and they understand that, and consent to it, that is completely valid.
loveistheanswer 6y ago
>When the virus first came up, it was completely unknown that the risk of long term impairment might have been, and now we know it was/is pretty severe. Only 10% of positive cases (not including untested infections) have any impairment after 3 weeks. https://covid.joinzoe.com/post/covid-long-term?fbclid=IwAR1RxIcmmdL-EFjh_aI- https://covid.joinzoe.com/post/covid-long-term?fbclid=IwAR1R...

rkangel 6y ago

> People framing it as 'unethical' should lay out exactly what their ethical framework is I didn't because I thought it clear and obvious from context. We're talking about medical ethics, which is a well developed field of research and practice. There are established procedures in the US and UK to get ethics approval for studies and those panels are not just making it up as they go along (mostly). I suppose when I say 'it is unethical' what I really mean is 'the medical community in the developed world has come to a strong consensus that it is unethical'. Even with informed consent.

xyzzyz 6y ago
To sum up, the notion of “medical ethics” doesn’t actually have much to do with ethics and with what is morally right, and as such should be routinely disregarded when considering how to fight the pandemic crisis.