4 ms·

What do you mean by that? The rules apply to Amazon just the same as to anyone else.

adamdusty 6y ago
Do they? All in app purchases have to be made through Apple's payment system. If you can buy amazon prime through the app then Apple should be taking a 30% cut. They might already do that, I have no idea, but it seems unlikely Amazon would agree to it.
- dpkonofa 6y ago
  You can't buy Amazon Prime through the app. What people are referring to is the fact that existing subscriptions are allowed to renew without the 30% cut. People are misframing that as an exception for Amazon even though there are several platforms in the same situation that already benefit from the same policy that Amazon now agrees to.
  - Wowfunhappy 6y ago
    Actually, I'm referring to the fact that Amazon Prime members can rent digital videos without Apple getting a cut. See the Verge article kevingadd posted below.
    - dpkonofa 6y ago
      You weren't the person that I responded to so, frankly, I don't care what you're referring to. Additionally, movie rentals are already covered by a prior agreement. The article you mention even says that Canal+ and other video services were already using this which is an option where you can allow purchases tied to an existing subscription payment method if you also allow for those purchases in the iTunes Store and integration into the Apple TV app. There was no special deal for Amazon and trying to present it that way, is, imo, disingenuous. How can it be a special deal for Amazon if it existed prior to Amazon's app changes and other platforms were already making use of it?
  - adamdusty 6y ago
    I figured you were right, so I just signed up for prime.. through the app, and it didn't use the play store payment system, so Google isn't taking a cut. Again, I have no idea what is possible on the Apple version, but I have subscriptions on other apps that go through the play store payment system. I'm not an expert on app store policies for payments, but I don't use any other apps that have subscription payment that don't go through the play store. I have a LastPass subscription which I purchased through their website, specifically because you have to go through the play store if you get it through the app.
    - Wowfunhappy 6y ago
      I'm pretty sure on the Play Store, only games are required to use Google's payment method. (Others can optionally choose to of course.) On iOS though, apps need to use Apple's payment system for any digital good. Unless you're an Amazon Prime member renting a video.
      - kuschku 6y ago
        On the play store you even have to use google's payment method for 501(3)(c) donations (but they'll reduce the fee if you're a registered nonprofit)
- csunbird 6y ago
  Delivery of physical goods and services are allowed to have other means of payment, I think.
  - drawkbox 6y ago
    Exactly, there are "Reader" apps that Apple has at 15%, these are video platforms, books and more which Amazon falls under. Amazon Prime Video, Netflix, Dropbox, Audible, Spotify and others also fall under this category. All of this is described clearly in their information. [1] "3.1.3(a) “Reader” Apps: Apps may allow a user to access previously purchased content or content subscriptions (specifically: magazines, newspapers, books, audio, music, and video). Reader apps may offer account creation for free tiers, and account management functionality for existing customers." [2] Additionally, Apple also allow small business at 15%. "Keep 70% of your sales proceeds (85% if you’re enrolled in the App Store Small Business Program) and 85% for qualifying subscriptions." [3] [1] https://www.apple.com/app-store/ https://www.apple.com/app-store/ [2] https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/ https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/ [3] https://developer.apple.com/app-store/features/ https://developer.apple.com/app-store/features/
    - Wowfunhappy 6y ago
      And yet video rental platforms from Google and Disney (Renting Mulan on Disney Plus cost extra) aren't allowed to bypass Apple, whereas Amazon can. Even if there was something very specific about Amazon's implementation that allowed them to bypass the rule—at what point is it fair to acknowledge the rule was specially crafted for Amazon? What if the policy had an exemption for "Companies that begin with 'A' and end with 'zon'"?
      - drawkbox 6y ago
        Google Movies and Disney+ can be watched on their app though. They are still "reader" apps. Buying/renting you can go via their site and I bet they prefer that for at least Google. They get all that customer info and no cut needed. Any previously purchased items are available on the apps it is just in-app purchasing is usually turned off to prevent the iOS 15% cut for "reader" apps. They could have it on and available to use Apple's Appstore to rent/purchase but the in-app purchasing fees apply 15%/30% depending on the content and app classification. Pretty easy to just purchase online and then watch in the app. Games will always be 30% most likely because iOS is a gaming platform as well and that matches other gaming store cuts. Even Tencent was 55% at one point for MyApp, they came down to 30% inline with other markets in 2019. Tencent MyApp is a competitor to Appstore in China, both companies make about $16B on their stores in revenues. If anything Apple/Google/Steam/etc all forced Tencent MyApp to come down to 30% from 55%. So things could be worse. Cuts prior to app stores were in the 60-70% range for gaming which was absurd. Epic Game store is 12% (was previously 30% but they lowered to compete on price) which Tim Sweeney has said profitability is around 7-8% but they only allow in games that you have a deal with them. They don't allow just any game to be sold which adds lots of additional cost. Apple, Google, Steam etc all allow in any game which is good as long as it meets their ToS. Mobile really opened up gaming markets and that is industry standard now. Apple/Google even forced Steam to open up about 5 years after the mobile stores appeared. My guess is break even for stores is about 10-15% if you have a more open market for all, part of that is keeping the stores/games secure from malware and payment info protected. That is why Apple was willing to go to 15% for small business and does for "reader" apps. They aren't making a ton of profit on those.
kevingadd 6y ago
Amazon got a special carve-out after a long dispute with Apple. https://www.theverge.com/2020/4/3/21206400/apple-tax-amazon-tv-prime-30-percent-developers https://www.theverge.com/2020/4/3/21206400/apple-tax-amazon-... This provides additional weight to Epic's arguments. They have repeatedly said they don't want a special deal for Fortnite, they want every developer to have access to either alternate distribution methods or a smaller cut.
- dpkonofa 6y ago
  That's not a special deal, though. Just because a reporter didn't know about doesn't mean it was special for Amazon. Your own article even mentions other providers that were already using that and, most importantly, it only applies to renewals of existing subscriptions that were started outside the app. It can't be exclusive to Amazon if other platforms are also already taking advantage of that same process. New purchases follow the same 30/15 rule as every other developer.
  - Wowfunhappy 6y ago
    I'd say a video rental is a new purchase. The customer may already be subscribed to Amazon Prime, but they're paying additional money to watch that specific video.
    - dpkonofa 6y ago
      Video rentals are already covered by an agreement that existed prior to the change in the Amazon app. The article you posted even mentions that Canal+ and other video services were already using this which is an option where you can allow purchases tied to an existing subscription payment method if you also allow for those purchases in the iTunes Store and integration into the Apple TV app.
      - Wowfunhappy 6y ago
        > The article you posted even mentions that Canal+ and other video services were already using this So why isn't Youtube allowed to use this for their video rentals, if the user has a credit card on file in their Google account? Why did Apple only offer it to a tiny number of companies, and only one major player?

Do they? All in app purchases have to be made through Apple's payment system. If you can buy amazon prime through the app then Apple should be taking a 30% cut. They might already do that, I have no idea, but it seems unlikely Amazon would agree to it.

dpkonofa 6y ago
You can't buy Amazon Prime through the app. What people are referring to is the fact that existing subscriptions are allowed to renew without the 30% cut. People are misframing that as an exception for Amazon even though there are several platforms in the same situation that already benefit from the same policy that Amazon now agrees to.
- Wowfunhappy 6y ago
  Actually, I'm referring to the fact that Amazon Prime members can rent digital videos without Apple getting a cut. See the Verge article kevingadd posted below.
  - dpkonofa 6y ago
    You weren't the person that I responded to so, frankly, I don't care what you're referring to. Additionally, movie rentals are already covered by a prior agreement. The article you mention even says that Canal+ and other video services were already using this which is an option where you can allow purchases tied to an existing subscription payment method if you also allow for those purchases in the iTunes Store and integration into the Apple TV app. There was no special deal for Amazon and trying to present it that way, is, imo, disingenuous. How can it be a special deal for Amazon if it existed prior to Amazon's app changes and other platforms were already making use of it?
- adamdusty 6y ago
  I figured you were right, so I just signed up for prime.. through the app, and it didn't use the play store payment system, so Google isn't taking a cut. Again, I have no idea what is possible on the Apple version, but I have subscriptions on other apps that go through the play store payment system. I'm not an expert on app store policies for payments, but I don't use any other apps that have subscription payment that don't go through the play store. I have a LastPass subscription which I purchased through their website, specifically because you have to go through the play store if you get it through the app.
  - Wowfunhappy 6y ago
    I'm pretty sure on the Play Store, only games are required to use Google's payment method. (Others can optionally choose to of course.) On iOS though, apps need to use Apple's payment system for any digital good. Unless you're an Amazon Prime member renting a video.
    - kuschku 6y ago
      On the play store you even have to use google's payment method for 501(3)(c) donations (but they'll reduce the fee if you're a registered nonprofit)
csunbird 6y ago
Delivery of physical goods and services are allowed to have other means of payment, I think.
- drawkbox 6y ago
  Exactly, there are "Reader" apps that Apple has at 15%, these are video platforms, books and more which Amazon falls under. Amazon Prime Video, Netflix, Dropbox, Audible, Spotify and others also fall under this category. All of this is described clearly in their information. [1] "3.1.3(a) “Reader” Apps: Apps may allow a user to access previously purchased content or content subscriptions (specifically: magazines, newspapers, books, audio, music, and video). Reader apps may offer account creation for free tiers, and account management functionality for existing customers." [2] Additionally, Apple also allow small business at 15%. "Keep 70% of your sales proceeds (85% if you’re enrolled in the App Store Small Business Program) and 85% for qualifying subscriptions." [3] [1] https://www.apple.com/app-store/ https://www.apple.com/app-store/ [2] https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/ https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/ [3] https://developer.apple.com/app-store/features/ https://developer.apple.com/app-store/features/
  - Wowfunhappy 6y ago
    And yet video rental platforms from Google and Disney (Renting Mulan on Disney Plus cost extra) aren't allowed to bypass Apple, whereas Amazon can. Even if there was something very specific about Amazon's implementation that allowed them to bypass the rule—at what point is it fair to acknowledge the rule was specially crafted for Amazon? What if the policy had an exemption for "Companies that begin with 'A' and end with 'zon'"?
    - drawkbox 6y ago
      Google Movies and Disney+ can be watched on their app though. They are still "reader" apps. Buying/renting you can go via their site and I bet they prefer that for at least Google. They get all that customer info and no cut needed. Any previously purchased items are available on the apps it is just in-app purchasing is usually turned off to prevent the iOS 15% cut for "reader" apps. They could have it on and available to use Apple's Appstore to rent/purchase but the in-app purchasing fees apply 15%/30% depending on the content and app classification. Pretty easy to just purchase online and then watch in the app. Games will always be 30% most likely because iOS is a gaming platform as well and that matches other gaming store cuts. Even Tencent was 55% at one point for MyApp, they came down to 30% inline with other markets in 2019. Tencent MyApp is a competitor to Appstore in China, both companies make about $16B on their stores in revenues. If anything Apple/Google/Steam/etc all forced Tencent MyApp to come down to 30% from 55%. So things could be worse. Cuts prior to app stores were in the 60-70% range for gaming which was absurd. Epic Game store is 12% (was previously 30% but they lowered to compete on price) which Tim Sweeney has said profitability is around 7-8% but they only allow in games that you have a deal with them. They don't allow just any game to be sold which adds lots of additional cost. Apple, Google, Steam etc all allow in any game which is good as long as it meets their ToS. Mobile really opened up gaming markets and that is industry standard now. Apple/Google even forced Steam to open up about 5 years after the mobile stores appeared. My guess is break even for stores is about 10-15% if you have a more open market for all, part of that is keeping the stores/games secure from malware and payment info protected. That is why Apple was willing to go to 15% for small business and does for "reader" apps. They aren't making a ton of profit on those.

kevingadd 6y ago

Amazon got a special carve-out after a long dispute with Apple. https://www.theverge.com/2020/4/3/21206400/apple-tax-amazon-tv-prime-30-percent-developers https://www.theverge.com/2020/4/3/21206400/apple-tax-amazon-... This provides additional weight to Epic's arguments. They have repeatedly said they don't want a special deal for Fortnite, they want every developer to have access to either alternate distribution methods or a smaller cut.

dpkonofa 6y ago
That's not a special deal, though. Just because a reporter didn't know about doesn't mean it was special for Amazon. Your own article even mentions other providers that were already using that and, most importantly, it only applies to renewals of existing subscriptions that were started outside the app. It can't be exclusive to Amazon if other platforms are also already taking advantage of that same process. New purchases follow the same 30/15 rule as every other developer.
- Wowfunhappy 6y ago
  I'd say a video rental is a new purchase. The customer may already be subscribed to Amazon Prime, but they're paying additional money to watch that specific video.
  - dpkonofa 6y ago
    Video rentals are already covered by an agreement that existed prior to the change in the Amazon app. The article you posted even mentions that Canal+ and other video services were already using this which is an option where you can allow purchases tied to an existing subscription payment method if you also allow for those purchases in the iTunes Store and integration into the Apple TV app.
    - Wowfunhappy 6y ago
      > The article you posted even mentions that Canal+ and other video services were already using this So why isn't Youtube allowed to use this for their video rentals, if the user has a credit card on file in their Google account? Why did Apple only offer it to a tiny number of companies, and only one major player?