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A manager is only a role model if the promotion structure is Engineer->Manager. At most modern tech companies that is not the main promotion structure. It's Eng

A manager is only a role model if the promotion structure is Engineer->Manager. At most modern tech companies that is not the main promotion structure. It's Engineer->Senior Engineer->Staff Engineer->Etc. Engineering management is a different path you can choose just like you can become a product manager but it is not the expected path.

halfmatthalfcat 6y ago
I can't say I've ever been in a company where the path wasn't either: Engineer -> Senior -> Principal -> Staff -> Distinguished OR Engineer -> Senior? -> Manager -> Senior Manager -> Director In both scenarios though, they've been a more senior engineer.
- scruple 6y ago
  I've seen people go from Engineer to Manager, skipping over, for want of better phrasing, the senior engineering ranks. In both cases it went poorly and a founders child was involved, indirectly at first and then later directly.
  - angrais 6y ago
    What do you mean a founders child was involved? Was that the person who skipped the senior rank?
    - scruple 6y ago
      One of the founders children was hired on to a low ranking managers team as an entry level Software Engineer. They were hired specifically by the low ranking manager and without the typical interview process. That low ranking manager, inside of a calendar year, became the director of an entirely new division in the engineering org. That division eventually went defunct, having never shipped a single product to production or having accomplished anything else of note. The other was a founders child being promoted from SE I or SE II into a middle management role. That also did not end well.
aliston 6y ago
Companies like to claim this, but it's not the reality due to an imbalance in power between managers and IC engineers. A manager controls a reports salary, career progression, has more face time with VPs and so on. Software engineering is unique in that ICs can still scale to a similar level of impact as executives, but it is a mistake to think that a Staff engineer and Manager are equal in the eyes of the organization. They aren't.
- ska 6y ago
  > Software engineering is unique There is nothing special about software engineering as a technical track this way. There is no one way to set up an organization. To a large degree they are how they actually work (i.e. not what's on paper). This balance has been an issue in managing technical teams for about as long as that has been a thing, which is a lot longer than software has been a thing. There is a fundamental tension though, in that the focus you need to maintain expertise in your field contends with the breadth you need to understand the context well enough to make good decisions. I suspect the real reason that you don't see more of it in practice is that it's actually really hard to continue to do both well at a very high level, and it's also organizationally hard to do.
  - aliston 6y ago
    There is something special about software engineering because it is fundamentally about automation. As a result, an individual software engineer can create the sort of impact that traditionally would require a team. I'm trying to make sense of the rest of your post, but it uses a lot of pronouns that don't appear to reference anything.
    - ska 6y ago
      > fundamentally about automation. I agree software has more leverage, sometimes but we are talking here about how decision making power is distributed in a company. Regardless about how much impact the IC technical output can have that is about how. The skills & information needed to make good decisions about what and when are different. Unfortunately, being highly effective at both requires spending time and focus in ways that are somewhat mutually exclusive, which makes this quite hard.
novok 6y ago
Once you start crossing the sr eng -> staff eng rubicon, you start doing more managmentesque things anyway. Maybe less 1:1s with specific reports, but you are definately talking to a lot of people and teams trying to lead the direction & design of what you are working on as a group.

halfmatthalfcat 6y ago

I can't say I've ever been in a company where the path wasn't either: Engineer -> Senior -> Principal -> Staff -> Distinguished OR Engineer -> Senior? -> Manager -> Senior Manager -> Director In both scenarios though, they've been a more senior engineer.

scruple 6y ago
I've seen people go from Engineer to Manager, skipping over, for want of better phrasing, the senior engineering ranks. In both cases it went poorly and a founders child was involved, indirectly at first and then later directly.
- angrais 6y ago
  What do you mean a founders child was involved? Was that the person who skipped the senior rank?
  - scruple 6y ago
    One of the founders children was hired on to a low ranking managers team as an entry level Software Engineer. They were hired specifically by the low ranking manager and without the typical interview process. That low ranking manager, inside of a calendar year, became the director of an entirely new division in the engineering org. That division eventually went defunct, having never shipped a single product to production or having accomplished anything else of note. The other was a founders child being promoted from SE I or SE II into a middle management role. That also did not end well.

aliston 6y ago

Companies like to claim this, but it's not the reality due to an imbalance in power between managers and IC engineers. A manager controls a reports salary, career progression, has more face time with VPs and so on. Software engineering is unique in that ICs can still scale to a similar level of impact as executives, but it is a mistake to think that a Staff engineer and Manager are equal in the eyes of the organization. They aren't.

ska 6y ago
> Software engineering is unique There is nothing special about software engineering as a technical track this way. There is no one way to set up an organization. To a large degree they are how they actually work (i.e. not what's on paper). This balance has been an issue in managing technical teams for about as long as that has been a thing, which is a lot longer than software has been a thing. There is a fundamental tension though, in that the focus you need to maintain expertise in your field contends with the breadth you need to understand the context well enough to make good decisions. I suspect the real reason that you don't see more of it in practice is that it's actually really hard to continue to do both well at a very high level, and it's also organizationally hard to do.
- aliston 6y ago
  There is something special about software engineering because it is fundamentally about automation. As a result, an individual software engineer can create the sort of impact that traditionally would require a team. I'm trying to make sense of the rest of your post, but it uses a lot of pronouns that don't appear to reference anything.
  - ska 6y ago
    > fundamentally about automation. I agree software has more leverage, sometimes but we are talking here about how decision making power is distributed in a company. Regardless about how much impact the IC technical output can have that is about how. The skills & information needed to make good decisions about what and when are different. Unfortunately, being highly effective at both requires spending time and focus in ways that are somewhat mutually exclusive, which makes this quite hard.

novok 6y ago

Once you start crossing the sr eng -> staff eng rubicon, you start doing more managmentesque things anyway. Maybe less 1:1s with specific reports, but you are definately talking to a lot of people and teams trying to lead the direction & design of what you are working on as a group.