5 ms·

Try managing a team where people take last minute personal days all the time, without having to give advance notice or a reason.

by jpm_sd 6y ago

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
compscistd 6y ago
Unless they interfere with scheduled meetings, I can’t see why this would bug you as a manager. Pair programming, counting hours for clients, or sprint planning are the only other things that could possibly conflict with last minute personal days. It doesn’t really seem to bug the managers at my organization if there are no calendar conflicts. If there are calendar items that have to be rescheduled, I think the onus is on them to find an alternative time
willcipriano 6y ago
> Try managing a team where people take last minute personal days all the time, without having to give advance notice or a reason. Try getting a job where they advertise a benefit, then complain when you use it.
- tester34 6y ago
  Never heard of benefit called "taking free days last min is no problem"
  - willcipriano 6y ago
    I have often heard personal days are to be used if say, you can't get to work due to transportation issues or if your child is home from school. If they aren't to be used that way how do they differ from vacation days?
    - tester34 6y ago
      Generally people don't have to use those last minute days often and I don't think that's what OP meant. It seems like people just were abusing it.
  - a_c_s 6y ago
    That's what "personal days" are for. Vacation days are days that are long planned. Sick days are last-minute days for when you are ill. Personal days are last-minute days for when, say, a pipe breaks in your apartment and you have to spend the day dealing with the mess. Or any other non-medical reason you have to be a person and not an employee for a day.
    - tester34 6y ago
      Generally people don't have to use those last minute days often and I don't think that's what OP meant. It seems like people just were abusing it.
  - astura 6y ago
    To be honest, if people are not told they need to give advanced notice for using their time off they often won't - especially when nobody else does. Obviously, it's not always possible to give advanced notice (illness or other unforseen circumstances), so most employers require a brief explanation when advanced notice isn't possible - "Sick kid," "car trouble," "illness," etc. These are normal policies, but they must be formal policies and communicated to employees. If those policies are in place and you have people violating them - then it becomes an HR issue, with formal reprimanded, so a low level manager shouldn't have to complain about it.
Voloskaya 6y ago
If your team is hemorrhaging personal days left and right, the issue is not with personal days, but with how your team feel.
badlucklottery 6y ago
If you're running deadlines so tight or your bench is so shallow that any employee ducking out a day here and there is causing big problems, you have a planning/staffing problem. The spontaneous employee vacation days are just making that problem more obvious.
themarkn 6y ago
I mean, there’s an upper bound on how often that can happen (how many personal days people have). Those days are intended to be used at short notice. So if people using them is a problem for the team, imo the team is not correctly matched to the workload. I do think we often undersize our teams by ignoring the impact of vacation and personal time in taking on work ... but that’s not the fault of the people using the time they are entitled to as part of their compensation.
- waheoo 6y ago
  Sick days are compensation?
  - themarkn 6y ago
    They are where I live. The number of sick days required by law is zero.
    - waheoo 6y ago
      Jesus fucking hell. And you guys get your panties in a bunch over orange man bad vs sleepy Joe? Talk about not seeing the forest in the trees. You guys don't even see it do you?
      - themarkn 6y ago
        Uh. I mean. I see it. I’m not from here, I just live here. I came from the EU where 20 vacation days was the minimum to a state in the US where no vacation or personal time is required. I’m still blown away by what companies advertise as “generous”. Maybe calm down with the assumptions and generalizations too though.
- wokwokwok 6y ago
  I'm pretty sure it has nothing to do with leave days and team sizes; those things are probably perfectly fine. The issue is: > I don't believe long hours are a badge of honor but I also believe that we have to do whatever it takes to win, even if its on a weekend. but, also... > Yes, there is a challenge of how to compensate when there is no equity upside... The complaint here is that people don't have 'skin in the game', so they dont care if the product succeeds, because it makes to difference to them; so they're taking personal days in a way that disrupts the (probably totally arbitrary) timelines and plans they have. ...so I mean, it's probably fair to say that if people are taking leave in a way that is disruptive, then that's more of an indicator that the team culture is totally screwed up than that there aren't enough people. If one person wants to 'win' and everyone else a) doesn't care, b) that person has no power to punish them if the product doesn't 'win', c) there's no benefit to them personally if it does 'win'... well, its never going to work out for that one person in the long run.
ForHackernews 6y ago
TBH, who cares? Waze is a traffic mapping thing, right? It's not like they're managing a nuclear reactor or staffing an ER.
dathos 6y ago
If you treat people like resources I imagine its hard when they dont function like you want them to, consider treating them as humans (like you and me!) and you might just understand that they need some unexpected time off now and then.
astura 6y ago
I mean, are the employees required to give advanced notice if possible? Are absences expected to be explained? You can't hold employees up to an expectation without telling them that it's an expectation. Are your deadlines so tight that any time off, even planned time off that corespondents to the employee's allotted vacation days would put you behind? If so then it's an indication the issue is with the project being understaffed or not staffed with the proper personnel, or the deadlines being unrealistic. Are you requiring Herculean effort and unpaid overtime regularly? If so your employees are going to eventually breakdown and need a day to recharge. Sidenote: I've noticed some people are happy to work optional paid overtime but unhappy to work mandatory unpaid overtime. Are your employees regularly missing so many days to the point they are regularly taking leave without pay and not getting prior approval? That is an upper management/HR issue.
izacus 6y ago
Tried, worked well, built a successful amazing product that's still successful and amazing. And all that with European PTO benefits across the team!
UncleMeat 6y ago
Your job as a manager should be to ensure that things don't fall apart if people get sick. If there is a critical process managed by a single person then you failed as a manager.
watwut 6y ago
In every single work I was at people sometimes took a day off next day. It is not like everyone would had infinite amount of days off - it was never a massive problem. Once in a while someone is missing. Typically, rest of team moves on through their day normally.
paulcole 6y ago
I've got a chronic illness and I have personal days. I don't plan when I can't work. Deal with it, don't give me personal days, or fire me.

Try managing a team where people take last minute personal days all the time, without having to give advance notice or a reason.

by jpm_sd 6y ago

Try managing a team where people take last minute personal days all the time, without having to give advance notice or a reason.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

compscistd 6y ago

Unless they interfere with scheduled meetings, I can’t see why this would bug you as a manager. Pair programming, counting hours for clients, or sprint planning are the only other things that could possibly conflict with last minute personal days. It doesn’t really seem to bug the managers at my organization if there are no calendar conflicts. If there are calendar items that have to be rescheduled, I think the onus is on them to find an alternative time

willcipriano 6y ago

> Try managing a team where people take last minute personal days all the time, without having to give advance notice or a reason. Try getting a job where they advertise a benefit, then complain when you use it.

tester34 6y ago
Never heard of benefit called "taking free days last min is no problem"
- willcipriano 6y ago
  I have often heard personal days are to be used if say, you can't get to work due to transportation issues or if your child is home from school. If they aren't to be used that way how do they differ from vacation days?
  - tester34 6y ago
    Generally people don't have to use those last minute days often and I don't think that's what OP meant. It seems like people just were abusing it.
- a_c_s 6y ago
  That's what "personal days" are for. Vacation days are days that are long planned. Sick days are last-minute days for when you are ill. Personal days are last-minute days for when, say, a pipe breaks in your apartment and you have to spend the day dealing with the mess. Or any other non-medical reason you have to be a person and not an employee for a day.
  - tester34 6y ago
    Generally people don't have to use those last minute days often and I don't think that's what OP meant. It seems like people just were abusing it.
- astura 6y ago
  To be honest, if people are not told they need to give advanced notice for using their time off they often won't - especially when nobody else does. Obviously, it's not always possible to give advanced notice (illness or other unforseen circumstances), so most employers require a brief explanation when advanced notice isn't possible - "Sick kid," "car trouble," "illness," etc. These are normal policies, but they must be formal policies and communicated to employees. If those policies are in place and you have people violating them - then it becomes an HR issue, with formal reprimanded, so a low level manager shouldn't have to complain about it.

Voloskaya 6y ago

If your team is hemorrhaging personal days left and right, the issue is not with personal days, but with how your team feel.

badlucklottery 6y ago

If you're running deadlines so tight or your bench is so shallow that any employee ducking out a day here and there is causing big problems, you have a planning/staffing problem. The spontaneous employee vacation days are just making that problem more obvious.

themarkn 6y ago

I mean, there’s an upper bound on how often that can happen (how many personal days people have). Those days are intended to be used at short notice. So if people using them is a problem for the team, imo the team is not correctly matched to the workload. I do think we often undersize our teams by ignoring the impact of vacation and personal time in taking on work ... but that’s not the fault of the people using the time they are entitled to as part of their compensation.

waheoo 6y ago
Sick days are compensation?
- themarkn 6y ago
  They are where I live. The number of sick days required by law is zero.
  - waheoo 6y ago
    Jesus fucking hell. And you guys get your panties in a bunch over orange man bad vs sleepy Joe? Talk about not seeing the forest in the trees. You guys don't even see it do you?
    - themarkn 6y ago
      Uh. I mean. I see it. I’m not from here, I just live here. I came from the EU where 20 vacation days was the minimum to a state in the US where no vacation or personal time is required. I’m still blown away by what companies advertise as “generous”. Maybe calm down with the assumptions and generalizations too though.
wokwokwok 6y ago
I'm pretty sure it has nothing to do with leave days and team sizes; those things are probably perfectly fine. The issue is: > I don't believe long hours are a badge of honor but I also believe that we have to do whatever it takes to win, even if its on a weekend. but, also... > Yes, there is a challenge of how to compensate when there is no equity upside... The complaint here is that people don't have 'skin in the game', so they dont care if the product succeeds, because it makes to difference to them; so they're taking personal days in a way that disrupts the (probably totally arbitrary) timelines and plans they have. ...so I mean, it's probably fair to say that if people are taking leave in a way that is disruptive, then that's more of an indicator that the team culture is totally screwed up than that there aren't enough people. If one person wants to 'win' and everyone else a) doesn't care, b) that person has no power to punish them if the product doesn't 'win', c) there's no benefit to them personally if it does 'win'... well, its never going to work out for that one person in the long run.

ForHackernews 6y ago

TBH, who cares? Waze is a traffic mapping thing, right? It's not like they're managing a nuclear reactor or staffing an ER.

dathos 6y ago

If you treat people like resources I imagine its hard when they dont function like you want them to, consider treating them as humans (like you and me!) and you might just understand that they need some unexpected time off now and then.

astura 6y ago

I mean, are the employees required to give advanced notice if possible? Are absences expected to be explained? You can't hold employees up to an expectation without telling them that it's an expectation. Are your deadlines so tight that any time off, even planned time off that corespondents to the employee's allotted vacation days would put you behind? If so then it's an indication the issue is with the project being understaffed or not staffed with the proper personnel, or the deadlines being unrealistic. Are you requiring Herculean effort and unpaid overtime regularly? If so your employees are going to eventually breakdown and need a day to recharge. Sidenote: I've noticed some people are happy to work optional paid overtime but unhappy to work mandatory unpaid overtime. Are your employees regularly missing so many days to the point they are regularly taking leave without pay and not getting prior approval? That is an upper management/HR issue.

izacus 6y ago

Tried, worked well, built a successful amazing product that's still successful and amazing. And all that with European PTO benefits across the team!

UncleMeat 6y ago

Your job as a manager should be to ensure that things don't fall apart if people get sick. If there is a critical process managed by a single person then you failed as a manager.

watwut 6y ago

In every single work I was at people sometimes took a day off next day. It is not like everyone would had infinite amount of days off - it was never a massive problem. Once in a while someone is missing. Typically, rest of team moves on through their day normally.

paulcole 6y ago

I've got a chronic illness and I have personal days. I don't plan when I can't work. Deal with it, don't give me personal days, or fire me.