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Slightly off-topic, but say I know Python and JavaScript and I wanted to add a multi-paradigm language with strong typing to my toolbelt. I'm looking for someth

Slightly off-topic, but say I know Python and JavaScript and I wanted to add a multi-paradigm language with strong typing to my toolbelt. I'm looking for something with a strong functional programming core but with object-oriented facilities as an "escape hatch". The languages I've been eye-balling are Scala, Kotlin and F# (I'm separately eyeing Elixir, but since it's dynamic, I'd leave it out of this particular discussion) My main requirements are that it's a "builder's language" with a great ecosystem for web development and growing mainstream adoption. I'm a general-purpose product engineer building apps end-to-end, and I favor general ergonomics and ease of use over other characteristics (performance, functional purity, etc.) I'm assuming from your comment you've tried both Scala and Kotlin and favor the later - would you bet on it knowing the above? Others are welcome to join in the discussion.

lmm 6y ago
> Slightly off-topic, but say I know Python and JavaScript and I wanted to add a multi-paradigm language with strong typing to my toolbelt. I'm looking for something with a strong functional programming core but with object-oriented facilities as an "escape hatch". If you're looking for a language that will let you keep writing Python/Javascript in that language, you'll find it, but you won't learn anything from the experience. You won't appreciate the benefits of those type systems unless you really commit to them. (I actually learnt Standard ML first, and it made me a better Python programmer; I imagine Haskell would have a similar effect). If you're looking for "languages in my toolbelt" you'll end up "knowing" a dozen languages but coding the same way in all of them, which is useful in some ways but ultimately limiting. What's your actual goal here - e.g. are you trying to learn more languages so you can get a better job? > My main requirements are that it's a "builder's language" with a great ecosystem for web development and growing mainstream adoption. I'm a general-purpose product engineer building apps end-to-end, and I favor general ergonomics and ease of use over other characteristics (performance, functional purity, etc.) If by "growing" you mean you want a language on the left hand side of the hype cycle, then Kotlin is what you want. If by ease of use you mean easy to write, Kotlin will serve you well - it has that Perl-like feel of it does what you want, unless you want consistency. I pity anyone who has to maintain a Kotlin app in 5 years' time, but it sounds like it'll do what you want it to.
- arcturus17 6y ago
  > What's your actual goal here - e.g. are you trying to learn more languages so you can get a better job? Not as an end by itself, no; I want to learn more languages out of sheer intellectual curiosity, but most of all because I like building things, requirements vary by project, and I believe that it's good to have different tools to tackle them. I work primarily in JavaScript and Python, but academically I've had rigorous exposure to C, Java and OCaml, and a few other languages to a lesser extent. I appreciate the benefits of dynamic languages but I sometimes miss the confidence and expressiveness of strong types. My process to learn a language nowadays is to build a project with a large enough scope, solving a real problem (generally, a web app that I or someone very close would use). That way I keep motivation high and get exposed to a non-negligible surface area of the language and tools involved. That's why I ask for advice on what to learn next - because I make a somewhat sizeable investment and I don't have the time to repeat the process that many times over the course of a year. Over the long run, I may have time to try all the things listed (and more!) but even then the question of sequencing (which one first?) is interesting to me... I'm young and healthy but I may not be alive in six months time. > If by "growing" you mean you want a language on the left hand side of the hype cycle Not necessarily growing as in the left side of the hype cycle, but in that it will likely continue having a vibrant ecosystem in 5-10 years time. > Kotlin will serve you well - it has that Perl-like feel of it does what you want, unless you want consistency. I pity anyone who has to maintain a Kotlin app in 5 years' time, but it sounds like it'll do what you want it to. Maintanability would be something I would certainly look for in a strongly typed language! Thanks for your opinion anyway.
  - lmm 6y ago
    > Not as an end by itself, no; I want to learn more languages out of sheer intellectual curiosity, but most of all because I like building things, requirements vary by project, and I believe that it's good to have different tools to tackle them. > I work primarily in JavaScript and Python, but academically I've had rigorous exposure to C, Java and OCaml, and a few other languages to a lesser extent. I appreciate the benefits of dynamic languages but I sometimes miss the confidence and expressiveness of strong types. If you've actually made serious use of OCaml then I wouldn't bother with any of the languages on your list - they're very much the same paradigms as OCaml (similar to how I wouldn't advise someone to learn both Ruby and Python - it's not that there aren't differences between them, but those differences aren't mind-expanding if you see what I mean). If you're talking about "a multi-paradigm language with strong typing to my toolbelt" then isn't OCaml already that? So I'd say Elixir is a better bet from that perspective - I'm no fan of the language, but it does something that none of the other languages you've talked about does. (Well, there is an actor implementation for Scala, but IME it's in an awkward tension with the rest of the language - kind of like the OCaml object system in that respect). > Not necessarily growing as in the left side of the hype cycle, but in that it will likely continue having a vibrant ecosystem in 5-10 years time. Scala is not growing fast, but it's mature and stable in a way that Kotlin isn't yet; I genuinely have more confidence in Scala being usable in 5-10 years' time, though that may be my biases showing. I'd say the same thing but to a lesser extent with F# - the whole .net ecosystem is kind of a parallel world from the big contiguous dev community, and the move to .net core is a big disruption at a time when F# is always going to be a lower priority than C#. (Of course the JVM looked equally rocky for a while, but it feels like the community has coalesced smoothly around AdoptOpenJDK now).
nicoburns 6y ago
Kotlin's a good bet with your requirements. You could also consider C# (not as new and cool, but still adding more features, and particularly well-designed language) and Rust (admittedly a little harder to use, but excellent multi-paradigm support and a strong web ecosystem).
eru 6y ago
You can do OOP in Haskell, if you really want to.. If you are interested in F#, but not especially wedded to .not, you might want to look at OCaml. F# is to OCaml as Clojure is to Scheme/Lisp. Ie F# mostly tries to be OCaml, but has some annoying limitations because of .net compatibility.
alephu5 6y ago
I also predominantly use python and JavaScript professionally, but have written a lot of Haskell, and a bit of go, rust and others. I love haskell and GHC but it's not a builder's language. That's not to say it can't be used in production, the language is very powerful, easy to refactor, performs well and is hard to make mistakes in. Some of the tooling like QuickCheck, STM and lenses are decades beyond other ecosystems whereas simple things like logging are hard and debuggers/autoformatters/IDE tooling are less polished than their counterparts in mainstream language. I have both Haskell and Django web applications in production and it pains me to say that python is a lot more convenient and easier to iterate on. Finally, in answer to your question I would recommend rust. It is a rising star with a decent type-system derived from ML languages. I would also characterise the language and it's ecosystem as being focused on building production software. As an added bonus it integrates well with python and JavaScript applications, and is a useful tool to have for optimising expensive algorithms.

lmm 6y ago

> Slightly off-topic, but say I know Python and JavaScript and I wanted to add a multi-paradigm language with strong typing to my toolbelt. I'm looking for something with a strong functional programming core but with object-oriented facilities as an "escape hatch". If you're looking for a language that will let you keep writing Python/Javascript in that language, you'll find it, but you won't learn anything from the experience. You won't appreciate the benefits of those type systems unless you really commit to them. (I actually learnt Standard ML first, and it made me a better Python programmer; I imagine Haskell would have a similar effect). If you're looking for "languages in my toolbelt" you'll end up "knowing" a dozen languages but coding the same way in all of them, which is useful in some ways but ultimately limiting. What's your actual goal here - e.g. are you trying to learn more languages so you can get a better job? > My main requirements are that it's a "builder's language" with a great ecosystem for web development and growing mainstream adoption. I'm a general-purpose product engineer building apps end-to-end, and I favor general ergonomics and ease of use over other characteristics (performance, functional purity, etc.) If by "growing" you mean you want a language on the left hand side of the hype cycle, then Kotlin is what you want. If by ease of use you mean easy to write, Kotlin will serve you well - it has that Perl-like feel of it does what you want, unless you want consistency. I pity anyone who has to maintain a Kotlin app in 5 years' time, but it sounds like it'll do what you want it to.

arcturus17 6y ago
> What's your actual goal here - e.g. are you trying to learn more languages so you can get a better job? Not as an end by itself, no; I want to learn more languages out of sheer intellectual curiosity, but most of all because I like building things, requirements vary by project, and I believe that it's good to have different tools to tackle them. I work primarily in JavaScript and Python, but academically I've had rigorous exposure to C, Java and OCaml, and a few other languages to a lesser extent. I appreciate the benefits of dynamic languages but I sometimes miss the confidence and expressiveness of strong types. My process to learn a language nowadays is to build a project with a large enough scope, solving a real problem (generally, a web app that I or someone very close would use). That way I keep motivation high and get exposed to a non-negligible surface area of the language and tools involved. That's why I ask for advice on what to learn next - because I make a somewhat sizeable investment and I don't have the time to repeat the process that many times over the course of a year. Over the long run, I may have time to try all the things listed (and more!) but even then the question of sequencing (which one first?) is interesting to me... I'm young and healthy but I may not be alive in six months time. > If by "growing" you mean you want a language on the left hand side of the hype cycle Not necessarily growing as in the left side of the hype cycle, but in that it will likely continue having a vibrant ecosystem in 5-10 years time. > Kotlin will serve you well - it has that Perl-like feel of it does what you want, unless you want consistency. I pity anyone who has to maintain a Kotlin app in 5 years' time, but it sounds like it'll do what you want it to. Maintanability would be something I would certainly look for in a strongly typed language! Thanks for your opinion anyway.
- lmm 6y ago
  > Not as an end by itself, no; I want to learn more languages out of sheer intellectual curiosity, but most of all because I like building things, requirements vary by project, and I believe that it's good to have different tools to tackle them. > I work primarily in JavaScript and Python, but academically I've had rigorous exposure to C, Java and OCaml, and a few other languages to a lesser extent. I appreciate the benefits of dynamic languages but I sometimes miss the confidence and expressiveness of strong types. If you've actually made serious use of OCaml then I wouldn't bother with any of the languages on your list - they're very much the same paradigms as OCaml (similar to how I wouldn't advise someone to learn both Ruby and Python - it's not that there aren't differences between them, but those differences aren't mind-expanding if you see what I mean). If you're talking about "a multi-paradigm language with strong typing to my toolbelt" then isn't OCaml already that? So I'd say Elixir is a better bet from that perspective - I'm no fan of the language, but it does something that none of the other languages you've talked about does. (Well, there is an actor implementation for Scala, but IME it's in an awkward tension with the rest of the language - kind of like the OCaml object system in that respect). > Not necessarily growing as in the left side of the hype cycle, but in that it will likely continue having a vibrant ecosystem in 5-10 years time. Scala is not growing fast, but it's mature and stable in a way that Kotlin isn't yet; I genuinely have more confidence in Scala being usable in 5-10 years' time, though that may be my biases showing. I'd say the same thing but to a lesser extent with F# - the whole .net ecosystem is kind of a parallel world from the big contiguous dev community, and the move to .net core is a big disruption at a time when F# is always going to be a lower priority than C#. (Of course the JVM looked equally rocky for a while, but it feels like the community has coalesced smoothly around AdoptOpenJDK now).

nicoburns 6y ago

Kotlin's a good bet with your requirements. You could also consider C# (not as new and cool, but still adding more features, and particularly well-designed language) and Rust (admittedly a little harder to use, but excellent multi-paradigm support and a strong web ecosystem).

eru 6y ago

You can do OOP in Haskell, if you really want to.. If you are interested in F#, but not especially wedded to .not, you might want to look at OCaml. F# is to OCaml as Clojure is to Scheme/Lisp. Ie F# mostly tries to be OCaml, but has some annoying limitations because of .net compatibility.

alephu5 6y ago

I also predominantly use python and JavaScript professionally, but have written a lot of Haskell, and a bit of go, rust and others. I love haskell and GHC but it's not a builder's language. That's not to say it can't be used in production, the language is very powerful, easy to refactor, performs well and is hard to make mistakes in. Some of the tooling like QuickCheck, STM and lenses are decades beyond other ecosystems whereas simple things like logging are hard and debuggers/autoformatters/IDE tooling are less polished than their counterparts in mainstream language. I have both Haskell and Django web applications in production and it pains me to say that python is a lot more convenient and easier to iterate on. Finally, in answer to your question I would recommend rust. It is a rising star with a decent type-system derived from ML languages. I would also characterise the language and it's ecosystem as being focused on building production software. As an added bonus it integrates well with python and JavaScript applications, and is a useful tool to have for optimising expensive algorithms.