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Honestly, I don't really know why this article is focused on the alarm clock instead of in getting the necessary sleep. I need an alarm clock because if I don't

Honestly, I don't really know why this article is focused on the alarm clock instead of in getting the necessary sleep. I need an alarm clock because if I don't have it, I enter a loop of "sleep until late - go to sleep late because I'm not tired - sleep until later", all without sleeping less than eight hours. In extended holidays without alarm clocks my waking hour would shift to three hours gradually, but consistently. (and before anyone says it, exercise just makes me sleep more so it doesn't solve the issue). So yeah, I need an alarm clock or something that wakes me up. I'd focus more on actually getting the necessary sleep, and also in not using caffeine regularly. In a new job where coffee was free, I started noticing that I was very drowsy on the evenings after lunch, and also happened in the weekend mornings. Turns out I was drinking a minimum of two coffees in the morning and my body had become used to having that caffeine, and without it I didn't work properly. I fully removed coffee from my diet and after a few weeks I returned to normal. If you are one of those people that "can't function without coffee", try removing it completely and see what happens.

mhh__ 6y ago
Even with an alarm I find that I almost immediately fall into a cycle of waking up at later than 7PM if I don't stop myself - I don't even go to bed that late sometimes, exercise or not. Its the only superpower I actually want - to be able to just turn myself off like lightswitch. My brain itself is fairly happy just sort of thinking about compilers or field theory and stuff like that when going to sleep but I physically cannot stop myself from putting my fingers in yet another pie when I'm awake so I end up in this hyperfocused state in bursts of an hour or two and then I won't be going to bed possibly ever. Sometimes I'm completely fine, sometimes the only way I'm getting up before 12AM is if I haven't slept a second. Even more annoying is that I have no vices other than tea - ADHD has been bandied around at me in the past, could be something like that.
- afarrell 6y ago
  > ADHD It is worth getting yourself checked. I'd also recommend listening to the podcast of prof of Neurobiology Andrew Huberman. He does research on the relationship between the eyes and the brain and a lot of it touches on sleep.
  - mckirk 6y ago
    I can only second the Huberman podcast suggestion. It's so much good information in one place and the guy does such a good job of explaining things that I'm really happy to see it gain traction :)
  - jdxcode 6y ago
    Yeah, I think he would say you need very bright light soon after waking, ideally sunlight.
  - J-dawg 6y ago
    How does one actually get "checked" for ADHD? It's not like there's a blood test.
    - xyzzy_plugh 6y ago
      You get assessed by a medical professional equipped to evaluate you, just like any neurodevelopment issue.
      - afarrell 6y ago
        As a first step, you might hire a coach to help you with 1. Making and keeping the necessary appointments. 2. Dealing with insurance. 3. Persuading your parents to endure the ego-threat of listening to your actual needs instead of telling you things like "stop being so hard on yourself".
    - fatnoah 6y ago
      (Note: My son has diagnosed ADHD, non-hyperactive) There isn't a blood test, but you can do a neuropsychological evaluation which assesses cognitive functions. We had one done for my son, and it was a 2-day affair. As a non-ADHD parent, it was eye-opening to get a glimpse into how his brain worked and to start to really understand the challenges ADHD poses in a school environment.
- mjevans 6y ago
  That and regenerating health quickly are the superpowers from The Long Dark that I long for. It's a videogame, and it does have a can't sleep if not tired enough mechanic, but you can just go to bed exactly when wanted and it's restful (when warm enough, and with water and food buffered).
- garmaine 6y ago
  Yeah... ADHD alarms are blaring right now. Worth getting yourself checked.
- goatcode 6y ago
  It kind of sounds like you're following an extremely unnatural sleep pattern. Chemically, psychologically, humans were meant to be awake with the sun and asleep with the dark. Do you remember sleeping poorly when you did this?
- tobmlt 6y ago
  I am facing yet another day of utter sleep deprivation tomorrow... most of this is from work stress I think, and a good chunk of that is because Ive never in my life been able to force myself to really focus on something that wasn’t fun/engrossing in its own right. Luckily, programming physics is usually engrossing and fun, but when I am being closely managed, the old traits come out and sleep soon goes by the board due to stress from slow progress. I can handle micromanagement during the “code-up-the-solver” stage, but then when I have to deal with yet another rewrite of the infrastructure code... the mind wanders to, say field theory, the weather, or hacker news. It reminds me greatly of back in my school days. I could never really focus on the content of my studies properly — not until after being dumped out of undergrad with a lackluster gpa and no good future prospects. Only then, with nobody looking, caring, or expecting, curiosity and motivation switched on properly. From the article: “ Dr Robert Stickgold has shown that people who learn a skill during the day do not show significant improvement until they get 7-8 hours of good sleep[1]” Wow, I have had that a handful of nights in the past 3 years.
  - sanarothe 6y ago
    I have no advice but want to send some empathy. I also typically get through work with curiosity and my own motivation, and less by discipline. It's a constant battle to refocus on critical business objectives and not to get distracted by the hundred other interesting rabbit holes. I know I've given too much time and too much of myself to work, but still feel a bit of shame and stress about falling behind. I've always heard the advice to do work by discipline and not motivation but 30 years and I haven't figured it out yet :)
    - tobmlt 6y ago
      Hey thanks! That’s nice to hear for sure. Similarly I’ve given way to much to work as well. My problem is they hold the cards for the moment!
  - adflux 6y ago
    Used to have the same problem, my mind wandering off into (anxiety raising) fantasies. Now I read the same book over and over again as a form of meditation, it's a way to switch off. Same book because else I will be too engaged and will want to keep reading. I have the brightness way down on my amoled screen so that I can only just read the letters.
- darkerside 6y ago
  If you aren't accidentally switching your AMs and PMs, you should really consider leaning into your sleep schedule. If you're going to sleep in the morning (6am?), just stay up one night/morning until 4pm, and then naturally sleep until 3am. Congratulations, you are now an early bird. That said, you might have done constraints enforcing this bizarre schedule. It doesn't really make sense to me without more details.
  - issamehh 6y ago
    For me that would only work for a short time. No matter what I do I end up shifting towards a night sleep pattern
    - darkerside 6y ago
      It's worth trying again at different points in your life. Sometimes it's been easier for me to wake up early than others.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
ehnto 6y ago
I am the same, and also weight lift and ride bikes so it's not from lack of exercise either. My sleep cycle drifts naturally forward, and it has lead to many weird issues. I don't fit in a 9-5, at least not without feeling like shit for 80% of the day, being basically useless during the 9-5 portion. I'm happiest when I just let it happen, and accept that for some portion of the time I am essentially a night-shift worker. But I'm not totally satisfied with that, either. I would love to be up at 9am and down at 1am every day, I think that's the sweet spot. But inevitably 1am becomes 2am, 3am, 4am, 5am, and at about 7am I will just stay up for 24 hours and start all over. This happens over the course of a month or so.
- mrslave 6y ago
  Sci-fi novels and TV shows with 26 hour days always make me envious. Just one more hour of the day and one more hour of sleep would be bliss.
  - vestrigi 6y ago
    That would be just two more hours that you're expected to work for your boss but in theory it sounds great!
- dsego 6y ago
  I have the same drift. I did notice that for me traveling and experiencing new things can sometimes break the spell for a few days.
- Nursie 6y ago
  That's a very familiar pattern. I'm not particularly happy when I let it happen though, as I miss the daytime and that affects my mood. Can't win!
- multjoy 6y ago
  BBC Radio 4 had a piece about this a couple of weeks ago, although I was listening to it on the way in for a night shift... I will try and dig it out, apparently it is more common than you’d think. Edit: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000q3r7 https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000q3r7
snorremd 6y ago
I once used a mobile alarm clock app that would try to be smart about waking you up. You put it on your bed and it would measure your sleep cycles by your movement and try to maximise your sleep, but wake you up after a whole cycle had completed. The theory being that being woken from deep sleep is worse than being woken from the REM stage of sleep, and that it is more natural to wake up after a full cycle. I can't remember if it actually helped that much, and I've since gone back to normal alarms.
- gjulianm 6y ago
  I tried this with my Fitbit, in one of the updates they added "smart alarms". I discovered two things: one, that apparently my range for waking up was too narrow and the alarm was always firing at the last moment, and that a vibration in the wrist will not wake me up at all.
deepstack 6y ago
> also in not using caffeine regularly Yeah I used to use coffee when I was in school, however there are side effects. Some including not allowing me to think clearly. I found out sleeping is the best remedy. Work should allow workers to take naps! Edit: of course I don't mean jobs that involves heavy machineries. But more like white collar jobs.
- maxerickson 6y ago
  It's more important for machine operators to be alert than most other jobs.
seer 6y ago
This drift happened to me too, mostly because the most interesting things for me were happening later in the day, I would read some engrossing book, code something or watch / play. The moment I put an interesting thing to do right after I woke up (martial arts training) my internal clock started going the other way. If I don’t intentionally stay up late, my clock will drift and I would get up earlier and earlier ... its weird and fascinating at the same time.
tonyedgecombe 6y ago
Perhaps you need an alarm clock to tell you to go to bed at night.
neves 6y ago
If you see the author sleep logs, that's exactly what happens to him and what he is advocating for top notch brain performance. The problem is that we live in society and not everybody can shift their sleep hours.
elbear 6y ago
What time do you go to bed? I haven't used an alarm in years and I wake up between 5 and 7 am. At that point, I simply can't sleep any longer, even if I lie in bed, so I get up. I usually go to bed between 10 and 11 pm.
- gjulianm 6y ago
  Usually around 12-1 AM now. But the time doesn't matter, it has happened when I went to sleep earlier (say 10-11pm). The issue is the oversleeping, and I haven't found anything to actually fix it other than alarms. Even light doesn't wake me up once I get used to having sunrise at 6-7 am.
  - elbear 6y ago
    From what I know the time does matter. In the first part of the night the body release some hormones that make sleep more effective. It's not only about the number of hours. Also, look up sleep debt. It's exactly what the words suggest. Until you "pay" that debt, you tend to sleep later, because the body wants to catch up on that debt.
  - Joe_Cool 6y ago
    I just stopped fighting it and start my day at 11AM. I am much more productive, healthy and can concentrate better at work. One early meeting a week is not a problem. I still need my alarm clock most of the time or I'd just keep dozing until 1PM. Some colleagues are the complete opposite and start to become tired after noon. It's weird how people are different when they aren't forced to all start at the same time. Forcing someone to be awake should be a human rights violation and illegal.
the_only_law 6y ago
I’ll get enough sleep when I have control over my life and my time, so maybe when and if I retire.
turbopony 6y ago
The obvious solution is to keep drinking into the evening!
joshspankit 6y ago
An important perspective: this is not an article, but a wiki entry specifically about the alarm clock. The rest of the wiki goes in to detail about a whole bunch of other topics from a brain-function perspective. Here’s Caffeine: https://supermemo.guru/wiki/Caffeine https://supermemo.guru/wiki/Caffeine

mhh__ 6y ago

Even with an alarm I find that I almost immediately fall into a cycle of waking up at later than 7PM if I don't stop myself - I don't even go to bed that late sometimes, exercise or not. Its the only superpower I actually want - to be able to just turn myself off like lightswitch. My brain itself is fairly happy just sort of thinking about compilers or field theory and stuff like that when going to sleep but I physically cannot stop myself from putting my fingers in yet another pie when I'm awake so I end up in this hyperfocused state in bursts of an hour or two and then I won't be going to bed possibly ever. Sometimes I'm completely fine, sometimes the only way I'm getting up before 12AM is if I haven't slept a second. Even more annoying is that I have no vices other than tea - ADHD has been bandied around at me in the past, could be something like that.

afarrell 6y ago
> ADHD It is worth getting yourself checked. I'd also recommend listening to the podcast of prof of Neurobiology Andrew Huberman. He does research on the relationship between the eyes and the brain and a lot of it touches on sleep.
- mckirk 6y ago
  I can only second the Huberman podcast suggestion. It's so much good information in one place and the guy does such a good job of explaining things that I'm really happy to see it gain traction :)
- jdxcode 6y ago
  Yeah, I think he would say you need very bright light soon after waking, ideally sunlight.
- J-dawg 6y ago
  How does one actually get "checked" for ADHD? It's not like there's a blood test.
  - xyzzy_plugh 6y ago
    You get assessed by a medical professional equipped to evaluate you, just like any neurodevelopment issue.
    - afarrell 6y ago
      As a first step, you might hire a coach to help you with 1. Making and keeping the necessary appointments. 2. Dealing with insurance. 3. Persuading your parents to endure the ego-threat of listening to your actual needs instead of telling you things like "stop being so hard on yourself".
  - fatnoah 6y ago
    (Note: My son has diagnosed ADHD, non-hyperactive) There isn't a blood test, but you can do a neuropsychological evaluation which assesses cognitive functions. We had one done for my son, and it was a 2-day affair. As a non-ADHD parent, it was eye-opening to get a glimpse into how his brain worked and to start to really understand the challenges ADHD poses in a school environment.
mjevans 6y ago
That and regenerating health quickly are the superpowers from The Long Dark that I long for. It's a videogame, and it does have a can't sleep if not tired enough mechanic, but you can just go to bed exactly when wanted and it's restful (when warm enough, and with water and food buffered).
garmaine 6y ago
Yeah... ADHD alarms are blaring right now. Worth getting yourself checked.
goatcode 6y ago
It kind of sounds like you're following an extremely unnatural sleep pattern. Chemically, psychologically, humans were meant to be awake with the sun and asleep with the dark. Do you remember sleeping poorly when you did this?
tobmlt 6y ago
I am facing yet another day of utter sleep deprivation tomorrow... most of this is from work stress I think, and a good chunk of that is because Ive never in my life been able to force myself to really focus on something that wasn’t fun/engrossing in its own right. Luckily, programming physics is usually engrossing and fun, but when I am being closely managed, the old traits come out and sleep soon goes by the board due to stress from slow progress. I can handle micromanagement during the “code-up-the-solver” stage, but then when I have to deal with yet another rewrite of the infrastructure code... the mind wanders to, say field theory, the weather, or hacker news. It reminds me greatly of back in my school days. I could never really focus on the content of my studies properly — not until after being dumped out of undergrad with a lackluster gpa and no good future prospects. Only then, with nobody looking, caring, or expecting, curiosity and motivation switched on properly. From the article: “ Dr Robert Stickgold has shown that people who learn a skill during the day do not show significant improvement until they get 7-8 hours of good sleep[1]” Wow, I have had that a handful of nights in the past 3 years.
- sanarothe 6y ago
  I have no advice but want to send some empathy. I also typically get through work with curiosity and my own motivation, and less by discipline. It's a constant battle to refocus on critical business objectives and not to get distracted by the hundred other interesting rabbit holes. I know I've given too much time and too much of myself to work, but still feel a bit of shame and stress about falling behind. I've always heard the advice to do work by discipline and not motivation but 30 years and I haven't figured it out yet :)
  - tobmlt 6y ago
    Hey thanks! That’s nice to hear for sure. Similarly I’ve given way to much to work as well. My problem is they hold the cards for the moment!
- adflux 6y ago
  Used to have the same problem, my mind wandering off into (anxiety raising) fantasies. Now I read the same book over and over again as a form of meditation, it's a way to switch off. Same book because else I will be too engaged and will want to keep reading. I have the brightness way down on my amoled screen so that I can only just read the letters.
darkerside 6y ago
If you aren't accidentally switching your AMs and PMs, you should really consider leaning into your sleep schedule. If you're going to sleep in the morning (6am?), just stay up one night/morning until 4pm, and then naturally sleep until 3am. Congratulations, you are now an early bird. That said, you might have done constraints enforcing this bizarre schedule. It doesn't really make sense to me without more details.
- issamehh 6y ago
  For me that would only work for a short time. No matter what I do I end up shifting towards a night sleep pattern
  - darkerside 6y ago
    It's worth trying again at different points in your life. Sometimes it's been easier for me to wake up early than others.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

ehnto 6y ago

I am the same, and also weight lift and ride bikes so it's not from lack of exercise either. My sleep cycle drifts naturally forward, and it has lead to many weird issues. I don't fit in a 9-5, at least not without feeling like shit for 80% of the day, being basically useless during the 9-5 portion. I'm happiest when I just let it happen, and accept that for some portion of the time I am essentially a night-shift worker. But I'm not totally satisfied with that, either. I would love to be up at 9am and down at 1am every day, I think that's the sweet spot. But inevitably 1am becomes 2am, 3am, 4am, 5am, and at about 7am I will just stay up for 24 hours and start all over. This happens over the course of a month or so.

mrslave 6y ago
Sci-fi novels and TV shows with 26 hour days always make me envious. Just one more hour of the day and one more hour of sleep would be bliss.
- vestrigi 6y ago
  That would be just two more hours that you're expected to work for your boss but in theory it sounds great!
dsego 6y ago
I have the same drift. I did notice that for me traveling and experiencing new things can sometimes break the spell for a few days.
Nursie 6y ago
That's a very familiar pattern. I'm not particularly happy when I let it happen though, as I miss the daytime and that affects my mood. Can't win!
multjoy 6y ago
BBC Radio 4 had a piece about this a couple of weeks ago, although I was listening to it on the way in for a night shift... I will try and dig it out, apparently it is more common than you’d think. Edit: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000q3r7 https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000q3r7

snorremd 6y ago

I once used a mobile alarm clock app that would try to be smart about waking you up. You put it on your bed and it would measure your sleep cycles by your movement and try to maximise your sleep, but wake you up after a whole cycle had completed. The theory being that being woken from deep sleep is worse than being woken from the REM stage of sleep, and that it is more natural to wake up after a full cycle. I can't remember if it actually helped that much, and I've since gone back to normal alarms.

gjulianm 6y ago
I tried this with my Fitbit, in one of the updates they added "smart alarms". I discovered two things: one, that apparently my range for waking up was too narrow and the alarm was always firing at the last moment, and that a vibration in the wrist will not wake me up at all.

deepstack 6y ago

> also in not using caffeine regularly Yeah I used to use coffee when I was in school, however there are side effects. Some including not allowing me to think clearly. I found out sleeping is the best remedy. Work should allow workers to take naps! Edit: of course I don't mean jobs that involves heavy machineries. But more like white collar jobs.

maxerickson 6y ago
It's more important for machine operators to be alert than most other jobs.

seer 6y ago

This drift happened to me too, mostly because the most interesting things for me were happening later in the day, I would read some engrossing book, code something or watch / play. The moment I put an interesting thing to do right after I woke up (martial arts training) my internal clock started going the other way. If I don’t intentionally stay up late, my clock will drift and I would get up earlier and earlier ... its weird and fascinating at the same time.

tonyedgecombe 6y ago

Perhaps you need an alarm clock to tell you to go to bed at night.

neves 6y ago

If you see the author sleep logs, that's exactly what happens to him and what he is advocating for top notch brain performance. The problem is that we live in society and not everybody can shift their sleep hours.

elbear 6y ago

What time do you go to bed? I haven't used an alarm in years and I wake up between 5 and 7 am. At that point, I simply can't sleep any longer, even if I lie in bed, so I get up. I usually go to bed between 10 and 11 pm.

gjulianm 6y ago
Usually around 12-1 AM now. But the time doesn't matter, it has happened when I went to sleep earlier (say 10-11pm). The issue is the oversleeping, and I haven't found anything to actually fix it other than alarms. Even light doesn't wake me up once I get used to having sunrise at 6-7 am.
- elbear 6y ago
  From what I know the time does matter. In the first part of the night the body release some hormones that make sleep more effective. It's not only about the number of hours. Also, look up sleep debt. It's exactly what the words suggest. Until you "pay" that debt, you tend to sleep later, because the body wants to catch up on that debt.
- Joe_Cool 6y ago
  I just stopped fighting it and start my day at 11AM. I am much more productive, healthy and can concentrate better at work. One early meeting a week is not a problem. I still need my alarm clock most of the time or I'd just keep dozing until 1PM. Some colleagues are the complete opposite and start to become tired after noon. It's weird how people are different when they aren't forced to all start at the same time. Forcing someone to be awake should be a human rights violation and illegal.

the_only_law 6y ago

I’ll get enough sleep when I have control over my life and my time, so maybe when and if I retire.

turbopony 6y ago

The obvious solution is to keep drinking into the evening!

joshspankit 6y ago

An important perspective: this is not an article, but a wiki entry specifically about the alarm clock. The rest of the wiki goes in to detail about a whole bunch of other topics from a brain-function perspective. Here’s Caffeine: https://supermemo.guru/wiki/Caffeine https://supermemo.guru/wiki/Caffeine